Tell me what you think of this point of view...

About a year and a half ago my church and another church merged. Not so coincidentally, we merged with my pastor's son's church. lol. Our church went through a split and the other church was small...so we just combined.

My pastor's son is very controversial in his thoughts and in the way he expresses himself. He had a great knowlege of the bible and never fails to convict during a sermon. He is normally right on but often says things in a way that offends some. I actually enjoy his hard nosed preaching....but hey I am extreme myself. Now, not as bad as him...he once said from the pulpit that Jesus should be your Prozac because depression was sin and not something that needed to be treated like a diease. This ticked MANY off. That even ticked me off as I know clinical depression can be a very serious issue and not the result of sin. And no it was not just a commentary on our society taking too many drugs for stuff...he really did mean the junk he says. lol. Oh and he comes off like an elitest at times.

Ok...well, he seems to have matured and stays away from offending. His father, my pastor, is not like this AT ALL! lol.

So, there's some background.....maybe you need it, maybe you don't. Here's the thing....at a meeting he (my pastor's son but now a co-pastor), expressed that he believed AWANA not to be an outreach. That AWANA was for the kids of the church. He was unhappy with the element his kids were around. He was unhappy with the kids who were disobedient, etc. Now, my kids are around those same kids....yep these are kids that make you glad you homeschool...yep theses are kids that expose yours to worldly things that you never thought to encounter in church. However, those kids need Jesus and a church base, IMO. Anyway, he wants to cut down on those types of kids and discourage any from attending AWANA.

Ok...now if that wasn't enough.....let's talk VBS. The couple normally in charge of VBS are way too busy with the teens to give all they can to this effort...they are VERY busy people. We almost thought a VBS would not take place this year. Anyway....my pastor's son decided that he would take over the planning of VBS but it would be done differently due to a lack of time. Instead of classes, teachers, and crafts, we will be having a speaker every day and an activity. For instance, we have a Chuckie Cheese night, one night we go to a campground, one night we go to the zoo, etc. I do not object to this part...that is just fine...but it really isn't VBS...ya know...but on very short notice it is fine.

Here is my problem. We are not advertising this to the public. We were instructed that this VBS was for the children of the church, their friends and classmates ONLY. Parents were allowed to pass out flyers but we would only have a few to pass out. This is not due to a lack of time, money (though maybe partially), or resources. All those things may be of concern but it seems this pastor is trying so hard to sanatize the children's department that he is forgetting what VBS is all about. He wants to cut down on VBS because he doesn't want AWANA to be filled with inner city kids again.

Yes, inner city kids are unpolished in many ways. Yes, they can often be a challenge to authority. Yes, they are often a bad influence on our kids. My kids learned more about homosexuality, sexuality, and horror movies in church than anywhere else. However, I believe most of this was a lack of leadership in the church and NOT the kids. I loved all my VBS kids in my class. I loved it even more when they came to AWANA. We even had an inner city girl come to VBS..then come to AWANA...then end up going into the youth group, on the church camping trip and then help out in VBS. That was exciting...oh and not to mention she got saved in AWANA. Isn't that what it is all about?

Ok...so set me straight or tell me you think this is nuts also. My friend said, "I would worry about a chruch taking steps backwards like that." I tend to agree.

 

I think you are right to be worried. The answer is there in your bible when religious leaders chastized Jesus for eating with sinners he told them in no uncertain terms that those people were the reason he was here, that the healthy don't need a doctor, the sick do. I am sorry that this is happening in a church where you no doubt have strong bonds. I found myself in a similar, but not quite as extreme, situation a few years ago. Most of the people in my church were in agreement with the new pastor and it soon became clear that I was the minority and therefore these changes were going to take place whether I liked it or not. It took a long time for me to realize it was time for my family to move on. I have never regretted that decision.

 

Ava that is just plain crazy girl! I mean really! Aren't we to go and spread the love of Jesus Christ and witness to those who don't know Jesus? For a pastor to be so elitist is IMO just wrong.

The lady running VBS this year (she ran it last year too and boy did she make people mad) wanted to stop taking registration at a certain number of kids. My pastor said no way would that happen. He said he wanted all the kids in the community to come and he wants to see the place filled to cpacity.

I have never heard of a pastor not wanting to reach out to people.

 

Well, I am glad it wasn't just me and my dh that were struck odd by this. I didn't want to go asking around at church and appear to be a busy body. lol.

 

I personally would be fine with some things not being outreach as well as some things being outreach, as long as there was a balance between the two. I would not be in favor of exclusivity in all activities, however I also understand there are times that just being with the "family" is nice for the children as well as adults.

 

I agree with what Seeking has said BUT I do believe that things like Awanas and VBS are outreach type programs. If there are to be activities exclusive to the church family then they should be something other than these two. Just my opinion.

 

What a sad, scary thing to behold. Are these decisions set in stone, or can there be a vote? I'd be protesting..loudly.

 

I don't want to belong to a church that closes and locks the doors on anyone and I don't want to belong to a church that lets the pastor or any one person decide policy. My Lord welcomed all to come to him. As far as I know he still does. The building I call my church home is still the Lord's house. If He moves out, so will I.

 

my humble thoughts on this...

There are so many difficult aspects to this. I am a Christian Homeschooling mother and too have been frustrated by what my children have been exposed to at church. My daugther's 4 and 2.5 attend AWANA and we are so blessed by it, but there are children that are exposed to much more than I allow my children to be exposed to at church and end up exposing other children to it. Well meaning, Christian parents put their children in public schools and we all know to an extent what public schools are teaching...etc.

While it is true that Jesus ate with the sinners, he never asked CHILDREN to eat with sinners.

But on the flip side, I was raised in the inner city and was saved through a church that welcomed inner city children and taught them about Christ. As a teenager, God called me to minister to other youth, go to Bible College and now, my husband and I raise our children in God's word.

Your co-pastor's concerns seem valid, but his approach to fixing it are not...almost borderline dictator (no offense).

I think circumstances like these require immense prayer and strong leaders that are willing to train and be used to bring these precious children to Christ. I think he's missing the fact that God has apparently given his church the awesome responsability of intoducing the gospel to people who need it the most. The one's that Jesus talked about, the needy and hurt and poor.

If he doesn't take a fresh look at what God is giving him, he just may loose it ALL. To whom much is given, much is required. Poor and hurting children are a harvest that as a pastor he should recognize.

Parents like you and me who have children who are not exposed to such things have a greater responsability to keep our eyes and ears open and be extra diligent in giving our children a biblical foundation.

All that said, I don't know what I'm going to do when my child comes home from church and asks me what it means to be gay. That's a scary thought, but all the more reason I am SO GLAD that there is power in prayer!!

Sorry so long.

 

My thoughts exactly. The one thing we are told every single Sunday is to spread the word of God. How are we to do that if we lock out other people---especially ones who need it the most?

I think ANY child should be given a chance. On any given Wednesday night, we have upwards of 60-70 teens in our youth group. Some whose parents have never stepped foot inside our church. We would never consider turning them away based on what they have done. Heck, we have adult members with pasts MUCH worse than the ones the kids are living now.

 

Thanks everyone.

I completely understand about the influence factor. I mean, I homeschool and some of these kids are the kids you try to keep your kids away from. I think that is all the pastor is seeing. His kids go to ps and I think he wants them to have a "safe" place with more liked minded people then not. As far as church kids....there are his and mine...so they are by far out numbered. I just think he is using the wrong ministries to make his point.

Yep, my kids came home asking what it means to be gay. However, much of what they were exposed to was in a controlled environment where it was clear these things were not accepted. Unlike ps, where much would be considered par for the course or normal.

My dh and I have never been for isolation. We just want a controlled atmosphere.

I will need to pray about this and see if God will led me in a direction of more leadership in children's ministries. I will also pray that the pastor sees where he is wrong in this area and have a change of heart.

I am just glad to know my dh and I were not the only ones thinking this was strange. I didn't want to take a survey at church on this matter though. lol.

 

But Jesus did say let the children come to Him. I wouldn't want to be the one who kept kids out, on Judgement Day.

 

But, you know, kids live what they learn, no matter if it's good or bad. I feel kind of sorry for these kids that are being looked down upon. 'Inner city' makes me think of Baltimore, and I pity any child that has to live there. If they are surrounded daily by negativity, that's all they will know. It's sad, to me. Kevin's surgeries all took place at hospitals in BMore- big name hospitals, and those neighborhhods where the hospitals sit are depressed, dirty, and scary to even drive through. Nothing beats the time we got hit up in the parking garage of Johns Hopkins hospital.:roll: Now, think of a youngster that has to be in that atmosphere all the time, day in, day out.

 

Ditto.

I have overheard some of our VBS leaders say that they welcome as many naughty inner-city kids as the Lord wishes. LOL :lol: What is the point of AWANA, VBS, and well...church for that matter, if not all will be welcomed??? Sounds like he is just afraid and lazy to do his job, which is to bring new believers to the Lord, duh! Church just isn't for the believers, it's also for the unbelievers to get to know Christ. That is sad. Influence or not...so we as parents have to do a harder job at teaching our children to lead by example instead of following. God never said parenting would be easy. And what kind of example are we setting for OUR children by shutting "naughty" kids out??? Doesn't that teach them to be intolerant? And it also doesn't teach them to love someone for who they are.

By the way, I wont touch the Prozac issue. It is best I keep my mouth shut on that one. LOL

 

Again, I am glad I am not the only one who thinks excluding "inner city" kids or not encouraging it...whatever is wrong. I feel God put us in a position to show His love to everyone. How can we show kids God is the father to the fatherless or Christ is the savior they seek, if we don't put aside our differences and witness? I have lead these kids to the Lord, I have taught some in VBS, AWANA and Sunday school. Kids are kids...all seeking guidance and love.

It truly makes me sick that my church maybe going in the wrong direction. I can get over one incident or one bad decision. However, an overall change in the wrong direction is unacceptable.

 

I think I would have left after the Prozac comment. I would not stick around in a Church that acts like that. I agree, I would not want to be him on Judgement day, turning away kids that could be saved.

 

I will be praying for you to have direction on what you may be able to do, that the church doesn't split again, and that the pastor sees that church is an outreach! Wow, I'm just surprised he would think that way!

(In the following, "you" is used as a generic term, not specific)
Isn't that a Laodecia (I forget how to spell that!) thing? Neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm....to be spewed out of God's mouth! You CAN'T be HOT if you are only willing to be with yourselves! I agree with Becky--Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me." You are going directly against what Jesus said by closing yourselves off from bringing in kids! Jesus also said, "If anyone causes a little one to stumble, it would be better if a millstone was tied around his neck...." Causing one to stumble doesn't just mean going out of your way to be mean to a child. It means you did/do not do all you can to help and protect these needy children! God will bless your efforts! Constant prayer over your children, as well as the Inner City kids will only lead in a positive way in the long-run!

Yep, lots of prayers for you on this one!

 

The comment was made before he was a pastor at the church. I think most have forgotten about it now. It was years before. However, I get your point. I consider leaving all the time. Yet, there are slim pickings for churches around here. My dh and I will have to pray about this and see where God's leads us.

 

I agree. I have had women in my church who teach in public schools say they do not agree with homeschooling because of the verse that says we should be the light in the world.

While I agree with her, I also don't believe that we should put our weakest and most vulnerable in the front lines. I believe children need to be taught and given a strong foundation before they should expected to take on the battles they will face in this extremely immoral society.

That's what I meant about children not eating with sinners. Unless we live on a mountain away from society, our children are going to be exposed to things we don't agree with. It just gives us more to be diligent about.

Jesus never turned away a child and neither should we.

 

I was just reading this and the scripture about "causing a little one to stumble" came to my mind immediately! The other scripture is "go ye into ALL the world". That means everyone, rich, poor, dirty, clean, young, old, everyone.

Ava, I guess this goes along with your other thread about Pete Ruckman!!!

Pray, pray, pray!!! We have God's Holy Word, the Bible to lead us in this matter.

Yes, we do not send our children to the ps, but in the church, they are there on our terms and we can teach what we want, not what the government insists we teach.

Churches have really changed since I was little, I accepted Christ in VBS. Many people, children included were saved in our church through the bus ministry. One teenager came into our church to steal a coat. That was his goal. He was caught in the hall, brought back into the service and was saved. He is now a preacher!!! God is in control not the high and mighty pious people of the church.