Honor, I didn't think you were off your rocker. lol. I didn't comment to try to show you that you were wrong...I was just confused on what I was led to understand and what you were saying. I am no authority....but always curious....so I may come accross as challenging someone but I am really just exploring the many facets of scripture.
I haven't read the other replies, so if this has been said, I apologize. In my opinion, God leads us to make the right decisions. Sometimes we get ahead of God and we do things because WE want to or we feel we need to and that is when we struggle. Here is my example: My husband and i were stuck in GA and wanted desperately to move back to TN. He went on job interviews and nothing. Then he got a promise of an "offer to come" and around the same time, that company put on a hiring freeze. We were just beside ourselves. Now, we could have forced it, sold out house, moved back here, and hoped for the best. But we didn't. God kept giving me the answer "in MY time" when he prayed. And I had faith that, in His time, (not my own) we would be back here. 6 months later, the call came. The job was his. It was a hard 6 months, but when the time came, things fell into place so effortlessly that it was just amazing. I could see the work of God's hand in what we were doing. He brought us here, in HIs time and for his purpose. 6 months before we came, He had work left for us to do in the place where we were. Now, on the flip side, I have a good friend who has forced the move to a new house. She sold her house, it was a struggle, she is building a new house and everything that could have gone wrong, other than the house burning down while under construction, HAS gone wrong. It is obvious this was not God's plan for her, but she is forcing it, pushing it, and having her own way. I tell her often that apparently it will take God actually hitting her up side the head with a big stick before she does "get it." Her reasons are good. She felt her son was in a bad school district and she "can't even imagine homeschooling" so, she has done all of this so that he can go to some other school. But I don't believe that was what God had planned.... Now, one thing I can speak to is FEAR. I have OCD and the one thing that I just can not find comfort in when I pray is when I FEAR someone I love is sick or dying. I know that God may have in His plan for me, or another person I love, to be sick, to have cancer, to die and I find little comfort in "God's will be done" because while I trust God and I love God, I know that His will is not always the same as our wants and desires. God has reasons for things - and sometimes we will never understand them....such as when a child or baby has to die. God sees the big picture and we do not understand at all. So, I do see what you are saying completely. Praise you in this storm is a song that comes to mind... I was sure by now God you would have reached down Wiped our tears away Stepped in and saved the day But once again I say Amen And it's still raining And as the thunder rolls I barely hear you whisper through the rain, I'm with you And as your mercy falls I raise my hands and praise the God who gives And takes away I'll praise you in this storm And I will lift my hands Because you are who you are No matter where I am And every tear I've cried, You hold in your hands You never left my side And though my heart is torn, I will praise you in this storm. And that really says it all to me. He won't always give us what we want....He will help guide our way, and when we stumble, when we fall, when hope seems lost, what He will do is pick us up, carry us through the storm, and never leave us.
I have to say that I haven't gotten to read the "book" the sermon yet. But I will. But your note here really hit the nail on the head. Our church is soft, we went to another church and both dh and I were amazed at how wonderful it was to hear a sermon that wasn't about "just come to Jesus" it has meat and was kind of tough to listen to. He really stepped on my toes, but I needed it. I also don't think that some of the elders are fit to be elders, they are just popular in the church and buisness leaders. So all the answers are no. My dh was on board with moving until he started thinking about it, and how we hated searching for a church before we found this one. I told him I would go with him, and submit but felt like God was telling us to leave. He said " I know it, but the people are so nice here" I think he will come around. We have moved two churches since we were married, and it has been tough both times. I am praying for an answer to where, when, and why just for my husband. So he can lead and I will be going willingly not just because I have too. We also question some of the "doctrine" but what church we would agree 100% with, other then our own.
I don't want anybody to think I am upset about the whole debt conversation. I really just have no clue how you can put mortages and renting on the same level. Just think about the social class of "renters" vs "owners" there is major differences. I just don't get it. That blows my mind. I actually do like talking and discussing that stuff, God has really used the money/debt issue to work with me on obedience. He has taught me alot of hard lessons through that path. I would have never thought about it unless it was shown as clear as Dave Ramsey puts it. There are others who teach the same message but it just didn't click for me. That is why I am a Dave nut. I have actually be blessed to help several familys get started through conversations like this on their way to debt free, and understanding God's will for their life. I see that as a great ministry for me. Not to mention the families in our FPU class who's lives were changed. I really don't mind to debate it either it makes me remeber the verses and such that made me change my life.
So many good responses I just don't know where to start, Thank to everybody. I have really had some great insite into what Faith is because of everybodys post. There are some very wise women on this board. You have opened my eyes and helped me to see alot of things more clearly. Rebbeca- Your song was amazing and so was your story. I am wondering if that is what is going on in our church. Because I have said all along, not now. Wait. But it is being pushed through. They want the building ( which hasn't even broken ground yet with utilites) done by April of next year. WOW. but the song made me cry. It is so hard to say ok God I will trust you, I will follow where you lead me (aka have faith )
I don't get this statement. I don't see any kind of social difference around here. The only social difference I see are in people who own mansions versus people like me who own a modest little home.
Ok So what do I think about faith. I started to read Heb 11, which I think is an amazing start to undestand faith. So then I went to the concordance in my bible and looked up the verses with faith in them, there are a ton. I then went to the Strongs concordance, and Vines, to see what the greek words were behind those translated Faith. All of this has brought about this conclusion. I don't have faith to move an ANT!! hehe And... That faith is a noun (thanks strongs) and it is the same word all through the NT. So when it speaks of faith in 1 cor 12:9 (like a gift from the Spirit, or something you can use) it is the same faith that they talk about in Romans 4 where we are to have complete faith, or 1 cor 2:5 faith in Gods power not mans wisdom. Faith is not a verb, it is not something we do (like prayer, or casting out demons) it is something that IS. James speaks of faith without deeds is dead. Which leads into the the whole talk about sanctification and justification ( which is what the other church sermon was about) Where justification is done by faith, and sanctification is deeds done because of the faith. I might have gotten those to mixed up my dh teases me so much I am not forever lost on which way is the right way. Faith is obedience to Gods calling. Like in Heb 11 those people were called to do something and even though it was very wierd they did it. It wasn't Abraham saying "hey God I would like to move, where do you think a nice place would be." It was God saying "Abraham, pack your bags your headed to another country" That was the push of faith, not Abraham making a decision to do something faithfully. Now he did follow orders faithfully which is a difference but really confusing for me. 1 John 5 says that if we truely believe (faith) then we will act ( deeds) from Gods command. So your faith gives your the courage to overcome the world and then to follow Jesus' teaching to not be of the world. All of which is based on Faith that God is who He says He is. I feel like all of this is leading me to say that you can't "do something to show your faith" or you can't "step out" in faith. It is more like a shoved out in faith by God. It is your faith that drives you to do something. You have to hide your faith or do something to hide it because it should be a driving power in your life. Right? And this driving force in your life is what others see in you as Faith, the saving/healing faith that Jesus speaks of in the Gospels. How many times did he say your faith has healed you, or the faith of your friends have healed you. James 5:15 says that a prayer offered in Faith will heal the sick. I have had this as a sticking point for a long while. I have really really prayed for sick people, other people have prayed for them and they are still hurting and sick. So I just dismissed the verse. But now I see that I don't have that kind of faith. I understand it! Imagine that I am wrong and the bible is right! The Vines says that faith is assurance, belief, trust, trust worthiness ( GOD ), "the faith" ( like Christianity a name). So all in all I feel lousy. I feel like I do not have faith like I thought that I did. I know that I didn't quite realize how much disobedience is a lack of faith. I didn't realize how much it is a lack of trust, or belief in God and his awesome power. How that must hurt Him. I have prayed for forgivness, and asked him to help me renew my faith. But I do not feel like we were acting outside of faith. That this whole mess is because we did what God called us to do, the others didn't like it because it questioned their motives. My faith (obedience) is enough that we stood against the elders, several times. We did that in complete faith, because it sure isn't either dh or my nature to do something like that. It is completely opposite. But something we both felt God wanted us to do. So what do you think of my conclusions? Have I missed the boat, or totally messed up somewhere. Tell me if you think so I would like to know.
Ok where I live there are people who rent, and those who own their own homes. The ones in rentals talk about moving out buying a home, that is the American dream. Move up move out, buy buy buy. The whole reason for the stupid sub-prime lending mess. The ones who own their home, or are paying on them :lol: are different, they don't talk about how they dream of a time they can rent. When you fill out applications they are treated different. You are asked if you rent or own your home. That is even asked on some job applications. You can't tell me there is not a difference in America. Also as my family has owned a ton of rental properties while I was growing up. A person who owns a home 90% of the time treats it quite a bit different then somebody who is renting a home. Not knocking renters, I have rented as well. I think it is a great idea to rent before you buy a home. And some homeowners are terrible with mantiance. But my point is there is a difference in mentality towards the property, even if you are a good renter. I asked my dh if renting was the same as a mortgage. He gave this example. He said that it is the same as a prepaid phone card, or cell phone. You pay for the useage of the card. If you do not pay for more minutes you do not get to use the card. If you do not pay your rent you are kicked out, and the deal is done, no more house, no more rent. You prepay at the begining of the month for the opportunity to use the house for that month. With a mortgage you do not prepay for the usage of the house. You PROMISE to pay (usually for 30 years), but not prepay. You owe somebody weither or not you use the house. If you decide to move you have to sell the house, make sure the mortgage is payed off, and such You dont' jsut pack up and move with no worries. If you don't pay they come take the house, sell it at auction then sue you for the remaider amount on the loan. I see it as like buying groceries. While you are in the store you have the items in your cart. If you were to leave with them, but promise to pay the store in a few months that is like a mortgage where you get the goods and use them before you pay for them (or running a tab). Renting is like paying as you leave, then you go home and enjoy the "fruits of your labor." You are not in debt to anybody. If you chose to not eat next month you would not owe anybody money for food. If you were on a tab you would still owe for the food you have already eaten. Does that make sense. Does that show a difference? I don't understand how you can't see a difference other then just interjecting what you think God sees. Which I don't understand since I don't know of verses to back that up. Please enlighten me if you know of some.
I agree with Aggie. Debt is buying with money YOU DO NOT HAVE on credit. This is what we do when we get a mortgage. Very few of us can pay cash outright for a place. But with rent, we are paying each month money we DO have. We can terminate it at any time (according to the contract, that is!). If we don't pay for a month or two, then THAT AMOUNT is debt; the amount for the next month is not. I still would like to know what other option there is.
Yeah that makes sense. I had never heard of rent and mortgage on the same par before...but I thought it made an interesting point. However, when you rent you are not indebted to anyone or a slave to a loan.
Ok I just read the origional post and not the rest, I know most of the posts are very long and I'm sure they are full of wonderful opinons and insite on the matter. But here is my way of thinking of it and my explanation. My kids and I have been discussing it some what. My son heard me say that we can Pray to God and ask for the things we need................. I had to further explain that, it did not mean he can "wish" for things he did not need like 1000 star wars toys. So I had to reinforce the part about praying for things we really need. (and we do not NEED 100 Star wars toys) so if a church is really suffering because it NEEDS a new building then I guess its different than wanting a new building for different reasons, I mean the churches that got ruined in the Huricains Reasonably need to be rebuilt yet I think that God also wants the patrons to assist in that, he gives them the good health to participate in the rebuilding if you see what I mean. Ok, I feel like I really can't say what I'm thinkig because I feel like I am just thinking out loud with out really planning my words.
Amy, I think you hit it right on. Why do they want to build? Are they full to bursting? Are they having to turn down kids because the Children's Ministry can't accept any more children safely? Or are they building because they want to have a building just as nice as the Methodists or Baptists on the corner. After all, THEY have one of those nice coffee bars, and we don't..... Never mind the current building is half empty. But if we had a nicer, newer building, perhaps more people would come.....
There are none to back it up, since back then there was no such thing as "rent" or a "mortgage". People often didn't even have homes. To me it's like this. You are still paying someone else. Period! And just because it's rent doesn't mean you have the money either. People lose jobs, can't pay things, and people often even rent above their means. I know plenty of people who get kicked out because they can't afford their rent. Plus, most places make you sign a lease for a year or two first when you rent. No different than a mortage. Just because you take out a loan, doesn't mean if you lose your house, that you still owe that money, you simply get your house taken away and it goes into foreclosure. End of story. No different than getting kicked out of your rented home, you only lose the roof over your head, is all. Once a house is paid off, you at least still own the home. With rent, you can spend your entire lifetime actually paying MORE than what you would have paid for a house. So what is actually worse...buying a home you can afford and in the end not have to pay a mortgage once it's paid off, not having to pay someone else. Or, renting your entire life and actually paying more out of your pocke, and never seeing the end in paying someone else? No difference to me, you are still paying a debtor. And just an FYI...I also never said that I thought renting or having a mortgage was a sin....so to me another option isn't necessary. I don't know why this needs to be brought up over and over. It's an opinion, which I am entitled to have. I don't see it as different, but you do. I am not critisizing you for not agreeing, so please have the same respect for me. I only asked you to clarify your statement, which I still don't get nor agree with, but that is ok. You are entitled to your opinion as well, just as I am, even if I do not agree with you. I have seen some houses got down in value because of how people treat them, JUST like renting, so I do not think it's fair to group people into category's. NOW...back to the original topic...
Amy you may not have planned your words but I think you are dead on! In fact, I always enjoy and love your ability to say so much, so logicially in very little words. So, I think along with Jackie's last post....those are the questions begging to be asked. Answer those and then see if "debt" is reasonable or if "debt" is ever reasonable. But let's see where the heart of the church is first.
Well that is a big problem with me. We just finished a huge remodel, like not even a year ago. There are plenty of seats, and classrooms for the kids. But the staff feels we need more, to be more comfortable, and make parking easier. Now remeber there are still parking spots when the church is full, and still chairs open. We have another huge metal building on the property that is being used to hold stuff for the "needy" like garage sale items. I think if we need more room, sale that stuff, use the money to buy people what they need or get a storage unit to hold it and refurb the metal building into classrooms for the adults or what ever they need. The youth have a completely seperate building that has classrooms for them as well. That would not cost anywhere near the 4.3 mill. But we would not have a coffee bar. See i have all the answers why don't they listen :lol:
Well, after reading your last post, I can now fully understand your problem in this situation. Sounds to me like they are not making this decision with wisdom...no offense to any of them...just a person miles and miles away with an opinion. lol. No church needs a coffee bar or more comfortable seating. Sounds like your church is trying to appeal to the public to gain membership in the wrong way. many churches these days are competing for members with new fancy churches and coffee bars and such. It is all unnecessary and a waste, IMO. I see no reason for a chuch to get into debt when they just remodeled and have plenty of room. I say wait until you are busting at the seams because hopefully by then a building fund from all the new members can pay for a building or something. Be prayerful......sounds like these decisions are being made for the wrong reasons....again that's just me. And 4.3 million is a HUGE amount.....can your church pay that off in a reasonable amount of time? All churches are flawed because they are run by flawed people.
THis is my own praphrase--- but---- Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Stepping out in faith is trusting God to do what HE said He would do, but you have to know that it is of His plan to start with. IF you hung our your laundry it is not saying its not gonna rain, its saying I have laundry to dry, maybe God will wait till it dries, he knows what He is doing! To me stepping out in faith is more like when you pay your tithe even though you don't know that you are going to have enough to pay your bills. not paying your bills then knowing you will have enough for tithe. You can't put the cart before the horse , as my mom used today. I am not going to judge your church leadership though, they know what they are doing and I do not. In faith itself though, there is a measure you are given at salvation to believe in Christ in other words, and then we are also given more as we need it to trust Him for healing, or for food, etc. It is a growing thing, as we grow closer to CHrist, we grow in our faith. As we dig deeper in the Word of God, the more we grow. As I read the Word I see how God came thorugh for the woman and her son who only had one drop of oil practicaly, enough for one meal, and yet God provided for her to the point she and her son became wealthy over the distribution of the Oil HE provided miraculously. Making the meal for the Man of God, that took faith. It took self sacrifice too, she gave of what she had. Trusting that the man knew what he was doing in asking her this and that He, God ,would provide.
I am not a numbers person, but my pastor is. I guess studies have shown that once a church reaches something like 80% capacity, it doesn't grow any more because people feel uneasy and crowded. So the fact that not "all" the parking places/seats are full isn't necesarrily bad. They might just be taking an honest assessment and saying that, if we want more people, we need a larger facility. Or it could be them justifying their desire to keep up their image. I honestly can't say which.
If you do not think that rent is the same as being in debt then that would be the answer until you can save for a home. I know that sounds like forever, but I really have heard and seen it done. My BIL just graduated from college and although he is a dork, he has close to 30k saved for his first home. We are paying a double house payment. If we were renting the we could save that extra payment (not to mention all the other stuff we spend on the house) and put it towards our future home. We would have to buy a small started home then move up as we saved more money. But that is how it can be done, and it has been done by others. I really think that we as Chrisitans are not used to thinking about things in a biblical sense instead of a worldy sense. We think of some things, like how we act, or how we raise our kids biblicaly (sometimes) but not how our finances are used. Or how that affects our spiritual walk. I mean I didn't realize how much it affected me and my marriage. Let alone my walk with God. I didn't realize it was talked about so much in the bible. The number of times money is mentioned in the bible is only second to Love. I think that means it is important.
Ava the 4.3 million doesn't include the almost 1 mill for the land (plus they traded our current land and building for the new land), and the 4.3 mill number came before the price of gas skyrocketed. So I am sure it is much higher now. This building will be the most expensive private building in town. There are the jail, and courthouse that are in the same range. But nothing privately owned. In the fund raising drive they just finished they got pledges of only 1.2 million, which was also done pre gas price hikes. I know that if you are in a city that wouldn't make much of a difference, but we draw people from towns that are over and hour away. It takes us $15 to drive to church on Sunday, and we are some of the closest to church. I guess I think they are way out building the neighboorhood. My pastor is a numbers watcher too. And that drives me nuts, because this is about Faith and following God, not numbers. Pure and simple, the whole ordeal I think should, or could be done without all the growth charts, the people count etc. If God called us to move, I think those things wouldn't be nesesary. There are lots of numbers that show new building projects hamper growth, cause a loss of attendance, loss of mission funding etc. But when I showed the leaders they just said not all churches have that happen. Which I agree with, but it happens alot those numbers are pretty big. The first church dh and I went to folded into bankrupcy, foreclosure, and lost everything due to a building project. That was a horrible thing to go through as a new believer. Our associate pastor we currently have left his church because the tension was so high due to a building project gone sour. (He doesn't say that but our good friends go there and their story is much more intresting) A major chunk of our "new" members last year came from a church split due to a building project fight. There was a ton of them leave that church and now that church is in a big finacial bind because so many of the tithers left. These are all examples of churches in our county ( hey it is "rural") so I can't go by the growth chart as good enough reasoning for me. But apperently I am out voted by some older men.
