Have you seen the Darwin Fish? It's fashioned to look like the Christian ichthys except it has legs and says "Darwin" in the center instead of "Jesus" or "IXOYE". I first tried to think that the sticker indicated the person was a Christian who did not believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis. However, I couldn't really support that type of positive thinking for long. It is clear that the Darwin Fish is a not just a statement in support of the theory of evolution but it is an attack against Christianity. I'm not easily offended, but this symbol is mockery, plain and simple. Would this type of "parody" of a religious symbol for any other religion be considered socially acceptable? In fact, would it not be labeled "hate speech" if it were another religion's symbol? It is my guess that most of those who have these things on their car aren't aware of how offensive they are. I say this, because I have often seen stickers on the same car promoting "tolerance". Maybe they don't know that the fish drawn in that fashion is a Chrisitan symbol. I'll just keep thinking that at least, so that I won't be near as irked when I see one!
Hating to burst your bubble....but they know EXACTLY what the fish means. However, I'm sure our fish is just offensive to them, as theirs is to us. We have a friend who actually had the darwin fish tatooed on himself. Personally, i think that's a big red X and he'll become a believer one day and have to reconcile that and it will become a witnessing tool! LOL I understand your offense, but take heart my sister, they only hate us b/c they hate Him. Bear the scar.
You might be surprised to learn a friend of mine, a priest, has a Darwin Fish on his car. A lot of christians love the symbol because it expresses not only their Christianity but their acceptence of evolution. In fact some geeky friends and I designed a Darwin fish spinoff for homeschoolers, secular or christian, who accept evolution (on my blog). It was certainly a poke at creationist homeschoolers but one meant to be accompanied by a wink and a nudge, the same sort of thing as when a creationist friend might smile and call me a heretic or heathen homescholer. There is real hate out their but this is usually one of those gentle nudges meant more in humour that should probably be accepted in that spirit as well. Light hearted humour and poking of fun seems to me to be something we could use more of in this world. Heck, I think it's key to how we on this board mnage to get along so well despite our differences.
I'm all for light-heartedness, but re-doing a religious symbol for the purpose of humor crosses the line for me. Imagine a bumper sticker with a cross and a scarlet cloth draped across it with the word "Myth" on it; would that be gentle poking fun? IMO, it is disrespectful to use a religious symbol of any faith in such a way.
It's probably something we'd have to agree to disagree on. The cross I probably would get offended at initially (even if I'm not sure about my faith at the moment) but I'd also find it an interesting comment and it would provoke some further discussion so I'd want to explore it. A symbol after all is a symbol a representation of the thing and not the thing itself or at least that my take. I think I can understand your frustration with it though. Please don't take my comments as an attempt to convince you, just shring my perspective.
First, I agree to disagree, but I'll continue this discussion for the purpose of academic argument if you and others who want to chime in are willing. You are right, a symbol is just a representation, but symbols can be very powerful in that they are so closely connected to the thing which they represent. They generally elicit very real and deep emotions. Consider the swastika. If someone saw this bent-armed cross displayed anywhere except in a museum, it would probably ellicit disgust and possibly outrage. The swastika is not a Nazi, but it is so closely link to Nazi ideology that we respond almost as strongly as if Hilter were standing before us. A national flag is another thing that is just a symbol, but burning it is considered a great affront and the ultimate act of disrespect to a country. We aren't always in control of how symbols are perceived. So, if we are going to use a symbol to announce something about ourselves to the general public (such as a bumper sticker), we need to make sure that it is one that will be properly interpretted by at least a majority of the viewers. For example, I love the Confederate Flag as a symbol of southern life and as a representation of the good things about southern people, however, that flag represents bigotry to many. I may stick the Dixie Flag on my car as a sign of southern pride, but my neighbors (I now live in the north.) would see it as a sign of racial hatred. So, since they won't get my intended message anyway, there is no point displaying it and offending my community. So, having said that, I think that if people wish to identify themselves as "evolutionists" then they should "create" their own rather than "adapting" and "mutating" a religious symbol. I think a protozoa with googly eyes would be a "natural selection".
I'll throw this out...my first reaction is to be offended. I don't think that all people who put that on their car are being antagonistic, but I think some do, and I'm sure the first person who created it wasn't looking for lighthearted fun. Imagine if someone superimposed a cross over a Star of David, or perhaps found a way to illuminate the natural crossovers of the lines into a cross - I would guess that would be considered offensive and "yet another sign of Christian hatemonging." All that aside - as a Christian, getting angry, resentful, hateful, etc doesn't exactly epitomize Christianity. There is a wonderful talk one of the leaders of my church gave about being offended, and one of the greatest points he made is that we CHOOSE to be offended, and pretty much hurt only ourselves spiritually. So, as a Christian, I'm opting for the "choose not to be offended" path. Well, okay, I'm trying to opt for that path; I have trouble sometimes with it in non-bumper-sticker areanas. SG
Okay, time for my 2 cents here. wanted or not, lol. I agree that it's good natured TYPICALLY. I think that the symbol that Dawn created is pretty cool because I am a Christian AND I believe that GOD created EVOLUTION. So in having said that, I believe that it is a symbol of both of my beliefs. However, I know that surrounded by staunch conservative hs'ers (who are wonderful, btw.) that it would be misunderstood and so I do not want to cause any ill feelings or have anyone mis-judge me (which ultimately would cause exclusion of my kids from groups and such). The same can be said about my southern flag. We used to have one previously on the car that said "heritage not hate" with our flag. I liked this because it clarifies my intentions of having the flag...however, I think that a bumper sticker that clarifies all of what I said about the darwin fish would be too long....don't you think? hmmmm, or maybe I need to be witty and create a line of explanatory bumper stickers! Eureka! okay, maybe not
First of all...if I haven't said this before..Autumn, I LOVE your transformer quote..I may have mentioned this but it fires me up everytime I read it. lol Ok...back on track... Dawn..does not surprise me in the least that you know a priest with a Darwin fish. lol. Alice, I agree that poking fun with religious symbols is not a good idea. However, that symbol from my understanding is not biblical but made up by man to express a belief. In that sense I do not see it as sacred. I would be more offended if the cross or the Word was used so carelessly. I don't like the Darwin fish and I do think it is a poke at Christians. Now, as far as not being offended is a characteristic of being a Christian....I disagree. I think those are thoughts and tales to keep Christians from being strong and standing up. We can have a righteous anger. If something offends my God it offends me and I have every right and obligation to stand up within the bounds of maintaining a good testimony. I hardly think Paul was beaten over and over again because he apologized for his faith everywhere he went and meekly left when he was told he wasn't wanted. Of course there is a line...of course we cannot be angry out of pride and of course we cannot insult and all that stuff. Yet, we can stand up and not allow our God to be mistreated or mishandled by an unloving world. In fact, that makes Jesus weaker in the eyes of the unsaved. The unsaved my think if Jesus isn't worth fighting for then why surrendar to Him. Yes, everything within reason...but when something offends my God it offends me and I make no apologies about that. Arm yourself with the Word and forget the weak image we have been force fed to believe is the nature of Christianity. Those prophets didn't die such cruel deaths because they didn't stand up. Oh..and the fish symbol, IMO, does not fall under the catorgory of making a stink. LOL.
I'll say first that you're right about symbols. I was rather flip but I'll take that back. I think you're suggestion about coming up with a new symbol for evolution would work for some BUT, as I mentioned before, there are a lot of Christians who love the Darwin fish logo.
I've seriously cut & pasted to summarize what I wanted to address. There is a difference between righteous anger and being offended. Being offended is being upset and angered by something that you feel personally annoying. Fromt he aforementioned talk: Righteous anger is standing up for God over something He is against. Personally, I don't feel that God is shaking with wrath over bumper stickers and the like. I don't see a bumper sticker as analogous to the beatings and stonings suffered by the prophets...or, say, by the driving of the Mormons from their home in the depths of winter because of their religious beliefs, such as in my spiritual heritage. I don't think that yelling at someone over a bumper sticker is Christian. I don't think that flicking them off because of it - and you know there are folks with Christian symbols on their car doing some sort of flicking! - is Christian. (In summation,) I don't think that most of the symbols are meant as an attack. I think our responses should be approriate. If a friend or acquaintence should ask what you think of their new sticker, then I think you could tactfully point out how they could be misconstrued, because surely your friend didn't mean it as an assault. And I fully believe that, as Christians, we should stand up for what we believe in. SG
Hey SG...I TOTALLY agree with your post! There is a HUGE difference between righteous anger and being offended in the sense that you lash out because you are annoyed. I also do not advocate lashing out. I did say that one needs to maintain her testimony when standing up. I did also mention that there are boundaries when you express yourself. I would never walk up to someone who had a Darwin sticker and tell him off. That is stupid. For one, I could care less about that sticker as I said in my post. So, I agree God is not shaking his finger over that. Also, I think lashing out at someone is the wrong approach when we should be trying to witness. Now, having said all that....Christians need to learn how to stand up for their beliefs. We need to stop apologizing for believing in Jesus and stop allowing Jesus to get trambled while other people's beliefs are held in high esteem. STanding up for what one believes is not being a brute or loosing control. you can stand up while calmly and intelligently holding true to your beliefs. We cannot allow ourselves to think the lukewarm christian is the example to follow. Again, just for clarification, I am not speaking about the sticker. So, I am sorry...I should not have gone off in another direction and confused issues. Sorry! Please note the tone of my posts are not harsh just me explaining my position. Love to you all!
Love to you too Ava....I thought you was yelling at me! :cry: haha, just kidding! I believe the Bible says Anger but sin not. In that I feel that it is okay to get angry, Jesus got angry, look at what he did in the Temple over the money changers. But he did not take it too far and sin. Some may consider me a lukewarm Christian because I don't get angry often over things like this. my motto in life is "Live and let live". It doesn't change my feelings about God or Jesus though.
Add a halo to the new logo? :angel: Ok, maybe not. Personally, I would not alter the unifying symbol of the fish by adding a divisional doctrine. Like I wouldn't have one that said "Pre-Trib" or "Post-Trib" or "Predestined" or "Free Will". If I felt the need to announce my position on such things, I'd do it separately. I understand that you feel differently, and I've enjoyed the discussion. I do agree with everyone that in the big picture, bumper stickers aren't (as my aunt use to say) "worth getting your panties in a knot". So, I'll unknot my panties now!
