since its an Arizona case, its in the news a lot here. My opinion is that he should, go to be with his mom unless she is unfit, then he should get counciling, and be on some kind of probation........ such as stronger punishments if he were to do something wrong in his teen years or after......
I dunno what to really say on this one, there is so much we don't know about the boy and the family. If the boy is ill yes, by all stars get that boy help, if we wasn't ill he is now in my books. Second I don't think he was ill as they said on the news here that the father, talked to the police force about giving and showing his son how to use a gun, so he must of thought is son was ok to handle the gun then. What made a young boy do this? I dunno, I grow up and was called every name on the planet and then some. I had nothing we were very poor I mean dirt poor there was 11 of us. I never once thought of killing someone for calling me names or hitting me in school because I was ugly or anything. Yes, I got hit alot in school and on the bus. The only thing I ever wanted to do as run away or hide... so I dunno what to think.. I don't think the boy should be able to go home and be with his mother, or out in the world because that is showing him it's ok to be bad because he is young and nobody will do anything to him...
I hardly think that school shootings can be blamed on psychotropic drugs, FreeSpirit. Not all school shootings resulted from kids who are medicated. My son is on Strattera, and he is so much better of a kid now, than he was when he was first diagnosed with ADD, adn I don't appreciate anyone suggesting that he didn't need medication, or is more apt to shoot another kid because he's taking it. I looked at your link, and I don't hardly ever post here, but I don't like being tricked into looking at links to Scientology stuff, as most of the women here don't seem to be posting links to other religious propoaganda. Thanks
<shrug> People make stupid decisions. Not targeting this father specifically, but not everyone thinks things through. Even if he did think his son was ok, that doesn't mean the child was.
I agree .. but there are fair questions as to what extent these drugs MIGHT have on a given situation. Across the news spectrum.. http://tinyurl.com/6zaf9y (Simply a shortened url for a google search of news on the subject, so no trickery there) Kind of like people who think homeschoolers are locked to a desk wearing prairie dresses, eh? I personally believe in the meds as an avenue of help....as we have mental health issues in our family as well a.....nd I cannot stand the Scientology folks at all. So I am totally with you on that one. Buit people get it from the news. I don't understand this. I do not feel tricked by them. It is just where THEY chose to get their info from. It is not about tricking you or me or anyone. Again, I am sorry that you were offended, but I think you were a bit harsh. It is ok for someone on-line to be "Wrong". We actually have a greatly well rounded group here where we have learned how to disagree, even strongly, and yet still have constructive disagreements where everyone tends to learn something from the thread. And believe it or not, I actually mean it when I say, welcome to the spot.
(((((((hugs))))))) Ladylurker! Take a deep breath, have a chocolate bar. And WELCOME to spot. Noone was attacking you personally. This is a wonderful forum, with a great group of ladies. This is one place, I truely believe doesn't attack others or have an attitude that you have to be like "us". We are a diverse group of intelligent, well-rounded (and sometimes nutty) women who have homeschooling in common. We also have our opinions on things that might be different. When we differ, we have thoughtful discussions on it, with noone attacking or getting out of hand. We all try to not be rude. There's too much of that in the world. We also can agree to disagree, in a nice way. I am sure Freespirit was in noway attacking you. I read her post to say there are links found, not that it was the reason. Your sharing of your son's story is proof of that, and that's what we need is someone sharing stories and experiences for us all to get the "whole" picture. That's why it's a discussion. Again, welcome to spot. I hope you stick around and keep in mind what I've said. All posters and opinions are welcome.
Welcome to the spot Ladylurker I'm not quite a fully qualified lawyer but nearly, and as i'm in the UK i can only go on the Uk laws. Here in the UK he could only be tried as a adult from the age of 10,(because according to the laws here a 10 year old clearly knows right from wrong)from the cases i have read ,heard and worked the judge would have a clear case of throwing his petition out of court, for many reasons but it could be clearly found he was led by the police officers and having no adult representative in the room with him is a big NO NO , wheter that person be a parent or a social worker As a mother my heart bleeds for him and everything he is clearly going through at the moment. There was a case here in the uk several years ago about 2 boys who took a young boy in a shopping mall and murdered him, where they were tried as adults and then the European Court of Human Rights declared that they had not received a fair trial because they could not follow the trial as they did not fully understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
Sory for blabbing so much...... I remember that case in England.... I wanted to skin those two, alive! I still say that even those two boys are mental. There are different levels of mental illness and saying that someone is mental does NOT absolve them of the crime, nor the need for punishment, consequences.... You have to be mentally ill to seek out a target child and do what they did. Something is wrong with you. Very wrong. But there has to be a middle ground between getting away with it, by living in some posh mental ward... or being thrown into the pits of hell with older abusive cell mates with no hope of a future at all.... When you are 8. So, I also do not believe in "Innocent by reason of insanity", That has always been hogwash. What I do believe is something in the middle . . . . . . . . Simply throwing them into a prison, does nothing but make them worse . . . There should be a mental hospital version of prison. As it stands now, there really isn't/ Our country just does not treat mental illness as a sickness. Everyone rolls there eyes and says, "They're old enough to know better." Not that they would get out one day and suddenly be "OK". But that at least an 8 year old is not thrown in with older people who are going to do God knows what. And who are just going to pump out a worse person.... Perhaps (If this child did it) he could get some serious CONSTRUCTIVE help WHILE serving the consequences. If a 50 year old alcoholic can "Change"... and become a CNN Hero who helps others.... Why can't a kid, who is sooo messed up that it is ok to kill? He has his WHOLE life to change. I have been to too many funerals where a friend or family member has been murdered by someone else. So I understand the pain.... My cousins daughter lives with me. Her father was killed when a man ran over him with a truck, dragged his body down the street and backed up over and over.. I was there for the trial. He got 40 years. I am slowly coming to the ability to forgive. Not for him, but for me. He was fighting with my cousin and freaked out. And it snowballed into that. within moments. Obviously not a premeditated crime, more a crime of passion. I now see it as two people who did not know when to stop and who let it get out of hand. If we treat this man and turn out a productive member of society, do we loose because we are not "getting even"? What really IS a persons "Debt to Society"? My best friend, her sister and her mother were shot dead by her father who would not accept her mother divorcing him. If he had not shot himself in the head, would someone had said his was an evil man, or a very insecure person who may have made a different choice with mental help? Did we as friends and family fail him as well? I believe in some way, yes. we take no responsibility for the welfare of our fellow citizens and society is rotting from the inside out. Guns have been around for hundreds of years, but suddenly mass murders are the norm..... Now, with this current case....we are not talking about someone who is 40 years old... The "Child" is 8. And I do not care that many children commit crimes. They have ALL been miss led and neglected to be allowed to think that "THAT" is there answer. WE have failed that child as a society and the LAST thing that child deserves is to not get a second chance. In many cases, especially kids who live in abusive situations, or gang areas, they never got a FIRST chance. I don't have the answers, but I know that treating ANY 8 year old as an ADULT is NOT the right answer. Sorry for blabbing so much.....
I feel very sad for this little boy. 8 years old is WAY far from being an adult. I did many things growing up that I regret. At 8 years old, they don't understand the complexity of situations, IMO, like an adult does. Sure, they should know right from wrong, but not if they were brought up to thinking differently. Whatever the case may be, this little boy needs help. My 3rd grade teacher adopted a little boy who was 7 at the time, many years ago. This little boy was abused, neglected, and his mother just one day looked at him and said "I don't want you anymore". Foster agencies laughed at the thought of this kid turning out to be something special. He was tough, very troubled, and all the foster parents and the agency thought he'd turn out to be a murderer or end up in jail. Well, this child is now in his mid-20's and is in the Air Force at a very high rank. He is a wonderful man, with a heart that is in love with Christ. NO child is doomed just because they make terrible mistakes at a young age. About the psych drugs...I am sure that there are some kids and adults who have been helped by them. Some people are seriously in need of them. But, I lean towards the opinion of what FreeSpirit says a little more...ONLY because they are WAY over prescribed, esp. in youth these days. I am NO Scientologist, and I don't even agree with their teachings and believe what they practice is very blasphemous towards God (hailing and bowing before their "leader", etc). However, I have seen first hand in my own family, and other close family members, what horrible things those drugs can do to people who are not meant to have them. People seem to want to take easy ways out of things these days, by relying on a pill. Many children are placed on them that should not be, which results in things like this. This is JMO of course, but also an opinion that is formed through my own research and experiences. Everyone is entitled to have their opinion, whether or not you agree with it is up to you. Regardless, I feel sad for this boy. I will pray for him, which I think is the best thing we can do.
I think I'd need to know what went on in that house before thinking anything needs to be done with the 8 year old. I am the mom of 3 kids with Asperger's. They are very literal minded and they could be talked into confessing anything. I am a criminal justice major and see no need for an 8 year old to be tried as an adult. I've long felt it should be 'guilty but insane' instead of not guilty by insanity'. If the 8 year is sent to an adult or even a juvenile facility he will simply learn to be a harder criminal - if he is indeed one now. Whatever happened he needs help - not jail. That being said. Yes, psychiatric drugs are over prescribed in some cases. However, two of my sons are on medication for two very different but serious reasons. My oldest has impulse control and can fly into rages in the matter of seconds. It is something like a seizure in that he cannot recall what happens during these episodes and he has no control over them. Part of the reason we home school is to give him more structure and education in handling these rages. He is, for now, on a very tiny dose of a drug that gives him that time to breathe before he flies off the handle. My other son is only nine but is at risk for suicide due to his out of control anxiety. He too is on a small dose of a different drug. He is a happy child again. My youngest son has ADHD tendencies. However the boy's Doctor told me NOT to medicate him because he doesn't think it will help. He's a very good Doctor who believes that less is more. He told me I should home school because the school would probably press me to medicate our youngest son. Yes, we have tried diet, we have tried Occupational Therapy, Speech Therapy, we see a counselor every other week, we do behavior modification. Sometimes these drugs do help. They must be used responsibly - just like every other medicine out there. I wish that this sudden rash of violence could be explained that simply - too many psychiatric drugs. But it goes much deeper than that. Peggy
I already posted my reply on this particular case but I do have a question......Do any of you think that a person could just be born (for lack of better word) evil? Meaning that without there being abuse, neglect, or excessive bullying a person could just not have any regard for another human life? Whether you want to call it a mental illness is up to you but I am talking about something that would not be able to be fixed. Think Charles Manson who to this day does not feel bad about what he did. There is another mass murderer that I watched a documentary about that does not care at all that he committed cold blooded murder. In fact he said he would still be doing it if he wasn't in jail and that he enjoyed killing. I can't remember his name but I do believe he became a hit man for the mob. His first murder was while he was in his teens...... Again, I'm not saying that is what I think about this case, I am just curious what your opinions are on this.
Pre-apologizing for length again... Not being able to be fixed, does not mutually exclude mental illness. Not all mental illness can be fixed. You are describing a well known mental illness known as a "sociopath". Also known as "Antisocial Personality Disorder" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder The Mayo Clinic defines it this way... http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/DS00829 Definition Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental illness in which your ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are dysfunctional. When you have antisocial personality disorder, you typically have no regard for right and wrong. You may often violate the law and the rights of others, landing yourself in frequent trouble or conflict. You may lie, behave violently, and have drug and alcohol problems. And you may not be able to fulfill responsibilities to your family, work or school. Another interesting article from Missouri state University... http://www.faculty.missouristate.ed..._learned_about/GANGS/WHYFORM/pathological.htm Sociopaths, who comprise only 3-4% of the male population and less than 1% of the female population, are thought to account for approximately 20% of the United States' prison population and between 33% and 80% of the population of chronic criminal offenders. Furthermore, whereas the "typical" U.S. burglar is estimated to have committed a median five crimes per year before being apprehended, chronic offenders - those most likely to be sociopaths - report committing upward of fifty crimes per annum and sometimes as many as two or three hundred. Collectively, these individuals are thought to account for over 50% of all crimes in the U.S. (Mealey, 1995, page) Psycology Today has a good article about it... http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/antisocial.html A more Current example: Casey Anthony has finally been indicted for the first-degree murder of her daughter, Caylee Anthony. Casey is a sociopathic, superficial sensationalist. To a mental health professional, she fits the description of someone with an antisocial personality disorder - just a fancy name for "sociopath." So, my obvious failure at a brief reply... Is that to say "Call it a mental illness" is not an option, as what you had described "is" a mental illness. As far as what to do about it. I do not have the answers, but I sure wish I did. I have a cousin who is like this and they scare the cripes out of me. Now, if we are talking about a young child and can they be "Fixed" . . I do not know. But a person can't help but want to try, ya know?
Yes I do, because I believe there are demons, and very evil things in this world. But, I do think that God is much greater than all those things. However, I do agree and believe with what you are saying. I also agree with what Jen stated above.
I guess I worded it the way I did because you always hear, "I looked in his/her eyes and saw pure evil". From reading many, many true crime books as well as programs I have seen I do agree that they are 90% of the time considered "sociopaths" and that this condition is a mental illness. But I also know that many in the general public think of this in a less scientific/medical way --- I guess that was the area I was trying to explore. Also when I say it can't be fixed........In this case I mean the person cannot be rehabilitated to live safely in society. I personally don't think most mental illnesses can be "fixed" in that it can only be treated and the person can be given skills/medication to deal with it. I hope that reads how I want it too. I agree that a person would want to try to help a child so that they are able to enter back into society..........but what if that child is considered a sociopath? Knowing what you do and the limitations there are on the ability to control this illness....Would you just let them back into society and hope that the crimes don't get worse. What if the child has already committed murder, do you eventually let him back out in society knowing that the chances of him doing it again are extremely high? Is there a point were the safety of others is more important than giving someone another chance just because of their age? Ps.....I know my spelling and grammer are horrible..........Please forgive!
I also believe that there are some things that science and medicine can't explain. I think that society is more accepting of the positive examples though, such as a miraculous recovery, than the possibility of the other end of the spectrum.
I agree with Jen about demons. I think that drugs are a touchy issue. They help some and harm some like all drugs. Every drug has side effects and not every drug works for every person. My mom suffers from depression. She was perscribed Zoloft (sp?) and it made her worse. Yet, I have know others who thought it worked miracles. When we are dealing with young people the results of certain drugs can be unpredictable. Any drug that causes a reaction in the brain and cause unpredictable side effects. This is true of allergy meds or cancer treatments...they don't work for everyone and can be harmful to some. Sadly, drugs that treat mental illness have a stigma attached so it isn't seen as cut and dry. Also, the results of given the wrong meds for a mental illness can have results that are not confined to the person taking the drug. About a kid learning to use a gun...so what? I know kids who live in the country who know how to use guns and they haven't killed anyone. My dh was taught how to use a gun when he was 8 or 9 and he never killed his father. Oh and about links to religious or other types of material...we can link our opinions to whatever material we want, hence freedom of thought and speech. Just because you don't agree does not make it offensive.
Now you all will think I am a monster...but those two 10 year old boys who killed that child in England...I think should rot in jail or even get the death penalty. I have a 10 year old...she knows right from wrong.
Actually, as I read some of those articles, a person is not diagnosed as a sociopath until the age of about 18, because children are so malleable, that they (The doctors) need to be sure that the child is not changeable, denoting a true sociopath, verses someone is exhibits sociopathic tenancies due to environment. So a kid can be thought to be a possible sociopath... In that case, I believe that time would tell the story. Not unlike many children mistakenly dupped ADHD simply because they are a bit hyper... Some children could be miss-labled as possible sociopaths because they have been molded (Artificially) by their enviroment, whereas given an enviroment change, they would flourish as a productive member of society. I am thinking of young kid gang members, when I mention the above. Or perhaps those children in foster care, who are lucky enough to find a really good constructive home and are given an example of "Normal" life on which to build a new belief system. So (I know I irritate people with my long windedness...) You original question of "Can they be fixed?".. A true sociopath.. can be treated, but not fixed.
