If you have read any other posts by me, you know I am in the process of figuring out a new and better way to homeschool. One thing that includes, of course, is how many test (if any). Years ago, I met a man who said that kids shouldn't have to memorize things and that they should be able to use the books for tests (a long time ago, but I think that is what he said). I thought he was off his rocker. I was in high school and to me tests (closed book) weren't all that bad. With the right tricks (word associations, etc) it was rather easy for me to pass with good grades. Besides, every school tests so it must be necessary for learning. :? Many years later, I started homeschooling my son (7th) and bought textbooks, along with test booklets and test keys. I loved all the neat and orderly stuff to go along with the texts. In history, for example, I would have my son read some, then I would "lecture" and have him take notes, then he would answer questions from the book. Then, before the test, I would review things with him. All this was done with the test in mind. I would look at the test and make sure to cover most or all of it. I did a good job of making homeschool a lot like what he had already been through.:cry: Lately, I have been thinking that mostly tests are a waste of time, especially for homeschoolers. Instead of learning more or reading a more interesting book about something that might catch their attention, they have to study for a test. Instead of discussing some area of the subject at length with the teacher (parent), the parent can feel a sense of urgency in covering all the "stuff" that will be on the test. Of course, I am not the first or last person to realize this, but I am so glad I feel free not to test. Does that mean I never will, probably not. But it will probably be in limited subjects. I have been "imprisoned" by the world's view of education so long, that breathing the free air is foreign to me. I am also fortunate to live in Texas. It may be hot in the summer, but homeschooling here is so cool. In fact, why don't we all move to a small town in Texas and start the biggest homeschooling community ever .
We don't really do tests, although I think it is necessary for science and math once they get to junior high grades. We will spend some time practicing for the SSAT this spring just because he's never taken one so formal. We don't need it really, he won't be going to private school next year. But I want to keep our options open for high school and I figure that test is a good indicator as to how he compares with the kids in private school already. Other than that - no tests. We talk about stuff instead and I think he learns more from that than anything else.
I treated tests differently at different ages. Before 6th grade, about the only things I tested were grammar, spelling and math. And that was more so I could judge their retention, as these things are built precept upon precept, so if they miss a concept, it might cause problems further down the road. By Jr Hi I was a little more serious about tests, mostly, however, the same subject areas. I did a LOT in English, History and Science by requiring written reports in lieu of tests. I felt that in those subjects, if they have read the information and can write somewhat effectively on it, good! Better than memorizing facts. Again, there were exceptions, like some biology and some physics. By high school I was doing most all of the tests for one purpose - ACT scores. The ACT/SAT prep books can help you know what to prepare for - look at them early! As well as the typical course of studies and college prep requirements of especially your state's university system. I still tended to do a lot of reports rather than written tests in history, geography, those types of subjects. And as I've stated on several other threads, by high school we weren't doing hardly any grammar, only as review, so Literature and Writing were also reports and papers. To me, a test is a test is a test. When thinking about why? how? and when? to test, first ask yourself, WHAT do you want to accomplish with the testing?
WOW! I'm so glad you posted this! I was coming here to post on this very topic! On Sunday, my youngest daughter (10/5th grade), was begging me to unschool her. I asked her what the problem was and she said she hates to read (it makes her eyes hurt and she reads so slow she forgets what she's reading), she doesn't like the questions on worksheets, quizzes and tests because a lot of times the questions don't make sense, and the more time she's doing school, the less time she can spend doing the important stuff... drawing. She wants to be an animator when she grows up, and she already spends hours every day drawing and creating animations. She's been doing Time4Learning which is very interactive for Math and English, but more like an online textbook for Science and Social Studies. I think she has dyslexia, but my husband doesn't want to get her tested because he doesn't want her being labeled. I think he's also dyslexic. He's only read 1 or 2 books in his entire life and feels the same way about reading that she does. Even with his difficulty reading, he's created a business that employs several people and allows all of us to work from home, so he's proof that you don't have to be a great reader to be successful.. but her struggles with reading still worry me. So, I told her that we could have her continue the T4L Math and English without the worksheets, quizzes and tests if we added complimentary videos so she would have extra review on each topic. Then I told her she could tell me what she'd like to learn about when it came to Science and Social Studies and I'd find videos for her to watch on those topics. This week she chose Chemistry for Science and the Stock Market for Social Studies. I also wanted her to do some type of project on what she learned for each subject, or at the very least talk to me about what she learned each week. I created her schedule for this week and she loved her first day. But, I'm starting to freak out a little. Do you need to "do" to "learn"? Maybe I shouldn't have taken away the worksheets? Especially for the math? I don't know... I do know she's an amazing artist and truly believe she has a future in animation.. so maybe basic math.. which she's already great at.. is enough. I guess I'm feeling like I'm at crossroads. Do we focus on improving her strengths.. or fixing her weaknesses? Should I force her to read more? She also struggles with handwriting. It blows my mind that someone who is so wonderful at drawing has such sloppy handwriting, lol. Does anyone know any animators? I wonder if they need college degrees. Maybe we should find out what background you need to be an animator and figure out what we need to do to get her there.
For us, the testing method really depends on the subject. My boys are in 6th and 8th grades. The best teacher I ever had was in grade 11 for history. Whenever he gave a test, he always gave two options. The first is to simply write the test (multiple choice, short answers etc) and the second option was to write an essay on what you feel is the most important topic in the chapter and why. I've been basically doing my own history curriculum (I'm a history nerd), and depending on the chapter, I will test it different ways. Some sections I give "typical" tests and others I give them a demand essay. I think it's important to know the facts, but it's also important to understand the reasons behind the facts, and essays let you know exactly how much they understand. For Math and Science, we've been doing basic chapter tests, but if they don't do well on the test, they then have to do an assignment on the same material. I don't really test in English, except for the occasional demand essay. One subject that I do test a lot is French. I test vocab and verbs whenever we finish a topic, and have review tests (like midterms) every once in a while. This is what works for us, because my boys love getting grades and knowing how they're doing in each subject. If they didn't care about their grades, I would probably do more oral testing.
Personally, I think it depends on the subject. For something like history or English or health, I don't see as much need for testing. Yes, it's important to grasp the material, but there are other ways to do this (such as having discussions). For math and most of the sciences, though, it is important to learn some things by rote. I'm so glad I was taught my tables up to 12 by the age of 6; I've never forgotten them. Converting between units in science or completing mechanics problems in physics, for example, lend themselves to testing. I've been thinking about this whole issue for a little while (to be sure we include the right elements in our online learning system). Right now, I'm convinced to the two most important activities are in-depth discussions (to get into a topic in detail and have the chance to ask questions and to challenge) and repeated quizzes (for learning things, as mentioned above, by rote). By 'repeated', I mean taking quizzes over and over, being presented with different questions each time, until you get an acceptable score. I'm sure that educators have fancy words for these two learning styles - although I don't know what they are!
I guess my real question is... does testing actually help you learn? Or does it merely tell the teacher how much the student has already learned?
We test...but I don't put a lot of weight on them for my kids. Their math has end of unit tests (well, my dd who does TT has quizzes), and their Easy Grammar has tests. And spelling. I guess. But I don't make a big deal about the grade, and if they are nervous we talk about how it's really just an assessment of what they learned, not a measure of how smart they are. Give me things to help gear them towards, and that it's more a measure of how I'm teaching, than them retaining. That seems to work b/c they do test well. I do HATE teaching to a test, though, which is why for history, science and the like I do not test if at all possible. I'd much rather them absorb material from living books, even the text books (which do have questions throughout the chapter), but I never treat any of that work as tests or grade it at all. Hmmmm....testing.
i test , mostly to see how they have retained what they have learned in that chapter. I thinks tests in math and english, and spelling are most important. Now I have open book test for science and history, just cause some of the chapters are so long. If we "fail" a test then I know where we need to work on.
Mandiana - you might want to try lapbooking or notebooking with her if she is more artsy! That way she gets to draw a lot and "label" what she is doing. Even my ds who is NOT artsy really works well with notebooks. my dd9 is VERY artsy, and she would rather draw everything she is working on, or arrange the material in a "pretty" way - it is like scrapbooking, so she really gets into it! Good luck! We didn't really do tests until 3-4th grade, and then just for math and spelling. Even now, that is all we really "test" on. I do have them do some worksheets/workbooks on their own to see how well they do on their own, in an style similar to testing. Then they are tested at the beginning and end of the school year with the charter - so they are familiar with the "test" environment. I also do "pop questions" throughout the day - what year was this? Who was that? Why did this happen? to keep the brain sharp and give test style questions in a less oppressive environment.
Tests can be good if you are not sitting with your child learning, teaching, guiding and know what he or she has learned by conversation. I do use testing in Math and our history has what we call a pretest, its tofind out what he didnt know already and then at the end a what did you learn, q and a, but its ot a test, my ds calls it a quiz because thats what it does to him checkes to see if he got it. So to me its nto a matter of memorizing what you need to know on a test but teaching well enough to know he got it in the first place. Conversations can be a way of testing, because you are asking the questions and he is answering them about what he has learned. So no worries about testing anymore okay? Just make the test fit the style of learning!
A bit off topic - but those test booklets (especially for math) can be used in another fashion. My ds does not take the test at the end of his chapter for math, he takes it at the beginning. That way we can see what he is struggling with and if he gets more than 80% on the test, he does not have to do all the problems in each lesson - just five - and he does two lessons a day. He still gets the review (we use TT so he watches the lesson on the CD) and a bit of practice, but it isn't overload since he just studied much of this same stuff last year. We have completed 15 lessons in less than two weeks! my ds loves this system, and each time he turns in the pre-test, he knows exactly how many he can get wrong and still maintain that 80% - what a great application for math skills!
I can see using tests to see where the weak spots are and to know what to focus on. If I used them in that way--it wouldn't be part of the grade he earned though. I just am amazed at how much I was doing things like the school I pulled him out of!!
Tests have never been designed to teach a child anything other than test-taking skills. We use them, in part, for this purpose as they will have to take tests in college. My greater purpose in using tests is to see how well the kids have grasped the material. I use them as a tool to measure what they are or aren't understanding. They are only tools, however, just as any of the other many tools I use in homeschooling. I, more often than not, make up my own tests so that they're geared toward testing the material I feel like I wanted them to really learn.
the only thing I dont like about todays testing and such is that people teach the test, instead of what they are studying.
Cabsmom, I do almost no testing. I tested the boys to place them in a math book. We do spelling, but even that is everyday...not a weekly big test. I did not test ds#1 last year (1st homeschooling year) but I might see about putting him in testing with the private school...to see where we are, and if anything is improving...or heaven forbid...going backward. We have lots of discussions, so I know what the boys know. And we revisit it over dinner or just in general, so I have a good idea on what is really being retained. (blood and violence mostly) Mandiana I think with T4L for math, you don't need any worksheets on top of that. I agree that the science and SS was boring!!! (and I LOVE those subjects.) It was cut and paste out of some textbook. Have you tried cursive writing? My ds#2 is artistic, and his handwriting is horrid. He makes all his letters "wrong". We have been doing cursive and he likes it. He is happier with how it looks and it is easier for him to form the letters correctly because he is not lifting up the pencil. (he is not dyslexic) ds#1 (who is probably dyslexic) also has horrid handwriting. (at 12 is almost legible now) and we went straight to typing. Spelling Power is working for us too. (not like gangbusters, but I think it is helping) I read a bunch of the literature aloud, because I want them exposed to good literature without being limited to what they can get through themselves. It is so frustrating to work so hard at deciphering the word that you can't remember the sentence. If your dd is ok listening...try libravox.org They have classics (and more) for free (audio) (We use this if I am not available for reading) I prefer to do the reading myself so we can work on vocabulary and discussions and all, but it is handy if I have to be doing something else. On testing for disability...I am struggling with that myself. When ds was in ps they wouldn't test him, because he wasn't failing. Great, let the poor child fail and then try to fix it, instead of figuring out what is wrong and working on it. He had figured out a lot of ways to 'get by'. But we are getting into, again, the "I am so stupid" sort of thing from him....and I wonder if he had a dx if maybe that would help his feelings on it. Yea, you have more difficulties in reading because of this. I also think maybe we could get something specific to DO for it. Looking into testing with Dr. Mel Levine - author of books, The Myth of Laziness and A Mind at a Time. not cheap. BUT about as much as we spent on the jetskis this summer, so maybe worth it. (just one way to look at it) and as for your husbands worry...if you are homeschooling...where are you going to stick that label? on her "permanent record" ?? ha ha.
We only test in math and that is only to see where we need to review. I rarely apply a "grade" to the test persay. To me its more important to see what areas ds needs help with. I've been thinking about this whole issue for a little while (to be sure we include the right elements in our online learning system). Right now, I'm convinced to the two most important activities are in-depth discussions (to get into a topic in detail and have the chance to ask questions and to challenge) and repeated quizzes (for learning things, as mentioned above, by rote). By 'repeated', I mean taking quizzes over and over, being presented with different questions each time, until you get an acceptable score. I'm sure that educators have fancy words for these two learning styles - although I don't know what they are![/QUOTE] Steve, would there be a way to apply a demonstratable knowedge like a powerpoint presentation, model/ diarama building or vidoetape of speeking on the subject? I would be interested in something that allows for type of "testing". Marty
I've been sifting through my thoughts for the last couple of years, trying to decide what I think about tests. If I go with my gut instinct I think tests are supposed to show a teacher what the student understands. Well, I work with my dgc everyday and I know what they know. We read and discuss everything. They are very verbal. To me tests are just an extra assignment. But then I realized society has a preconceived idea of what an education is and how it is accomplished. So I give them occasional regular tests. And the reason I do this is if we ever have to prove what they have done I can put a portfolio together of things they have done. I homeschooled both my daughters and was never asked for anything, my dd is divorced and her ex is a jerk. Hopefully nothing will ever become an issue. I suppose the issue of what to test, when and why can have different applications and importance.
Maybe I can answer in three parts. First, maybe I can explain more clearly why I believe tests can be very powerful. I spent a couple of hours this evening creating a spelling test for 5th graders. While my site isn't really ready yet, let me give you directions to access that quiz. - Go to www.sharedstudy.com - Login in using 'spot-student' as the username and 'homeschool' as the password. - Select the 'Quiz' tab at the top of the screen. - Click on the blue name of the quiz 'Spelling for 5th graders'. - Take the quiz as many times as you wish. I created a test bank of 150 questions. On each quiz attempt, the student must answer 20 questions in 5 minutes. After each attempt, she can review all the questions, her selected answers, and the correct answers. Each time the student takes the quiz, she sees a different set of questions. Over time, questions are recycled, and the student feels more and more confident. Eventually, she'll learn how to spell all 150 words. When ready, she can take the single graded quiz (which I disabled in the example). So as not to consume too much time, I didn't add hints or explanations to these 150 questions. To see how they work, try the other quiz (which I built a few weeks ago for someone wishing to test the math ability of potential store clerks). If the student is unsure of an answer during a practice attempt, she can view the hint (hints are disabled when taking the graded attempt). If she gets the answer wrong, a detailed explanation appears after each question at the review screen. Now, it takes time to create a large bank of questions, especially when there's a hint and explanation for each one, but the end result, I think, is quite powerful. Yes, it's learning by rote, but the student begins over time to understand the process and the pattern and, hopefully, "gets it". This is more than a simple one-time test for understanding; it's part of the learning process itself. Do let me know what you think and whether you agree.
As for the other two parts... For some topics, I firmly believe that students learn most effectively by digging into the details with others, asking questions, challenging answers, thinking of exceptions, and addressing opposing opinions. This can be done in conversation between a parent and child. For example, I challenge my children all the time when an opportunity arises, asking them why this and why not that - forcing them to think. Maybe I'll give them a wrong and deceptive answer and ask them to tell me why it's wrong. In the online classroom, I've tried to capture this in online discussions - which are basically message threads very similar to this forum. The benefit is that the discussion is captured for posterity, and the student can return to it at any time. For some other topics, it's useful to ask the student for a report. This is another way to force her to get into the details, but this time the research is performed alone - and the report is a great tool for forcing students to pull out the main conclusions, to separate the wheat from the chaff, if you will. I'm not sure whether this is what you were asking about, so maybe I missed the point altogether. Do let me know if I went completely off the tracks.
