Is it possible to trade Godly thinking for "higher" thinking

This relates in a way to my math post, but I wanted to go into a different area, so I started a different thread.

I was watching a movie about William Tyndale the other day and it had me thinking. He was a very educated man and a God fearing man, who translated the Bible into the English language. Without him, we may be without God's word in a language we easily understand. He went against the church, back then it was considered heresy to even speak a prayer in English. Some other well educated people thought that the common people weren't intelligent to understand the Word of God. They weren't thinking that God works with all types of people.

I think this shows two very opposing things that can happen when someone is well educated:

One-He can continue following God and use the wisdom and knowledge that God has given him and do as God asks even if it looks foolish and even heretical to others.

Two-He can become so puffed up with "knowledge" and leave God behind and follow what he thinks is right only to end up not following God or at least not as close as before.

So, I don't think there is anything wrong with "higher learning" as long as we realize that 1) God gives us the ability to learn, 2) We should always remember to listen to His voice over our desires, and 3) that we don't place higher learning so high up in our lives that we lose focus on much more important things.

 

I agree. I think that education and a brain is a gift from God. I believe God wants us to use our brains as well as our hearts or He would not have given us free will. There is nothing wrong with higher education. My pastor and a Ph.D. I think it is possible to get puffed up over your intelligence. However, it is just as possible to get puffed up over making the best darn apple pie in the land. So, being puffed up or prideful can take many forms. I say keep learning and take that God given brain as far as the Lord allows! Just, as cabsmom says, we retain the proper priority.

 

I love to study the fathers of the faith, especially in thier heretical moments. I think we can learn so much from it. I will definitly, if we continue through high school include this sort of study in our curriculum. I am facinated by the way the children learn and how they start to see the grey in things...
And they start expressing interest in other peoples ideas...
What a blessing it is to have the luxury to spend this time with my children.

I definitely think one can get puffed up about intelligence and it is something I struggle with...I don't necessarily think I am super intelligent, but it is very important to me that others consider me intelligent. AND (according to dh) I tend to have trouble hiding my um...shall we say exasperation with those I consider to be less than intelligent.
If I get a B or heaven forbid a C on a test, I assume that the test is incorrect.:roll:
The first time I got a C on a test in College I cried all the way home.:cry:
I have two kiddo's that are the same way...the grade is sooooo important to them. The other two like thier dad's attitude.
C's get degrees!

(Is it wrong that it bugs me that my pastor can best me in a theological argument? sigh. still working on it.)

 

There are two distinct things here: (i) believing that individuals have been misled by church leaders, and (ii) believing that those around us aren't very smart. Both are fraught with danger, especially the latter because it can lead to pride.

I'm convinced that many today are being misled, not so much by church leaders as by so-called 'Christian culture' (radio stations, TV stations, and self-appointed spokespeople for our faith). Let me give some examples (which might stir a reaction!):

- Believing we are entitled to wealth and luxuries when millions of believers live in hopeless conditions

- Believing we are to be political and trying to bring down political leaders (or executing foreign ones)

- Believing that it's OK to publicly discriminate against, and even persecute, certain groups (gays come to mind)

I'm most certainly not in the same class as the many fine Christian intellectuals, but I do understand very well what you write here. As some know, I'm a Christian who accepts that life evolved from simple organisms to complex species and that man evolved from the great apes. I didn't used to accept this but, as a scientist at heart, it just can't be denied. I've spent years thinking this through (because it's much bigger than just evolution) and am even thinking of writing a book on the subject, but I know first-hand what it means to be viewed by many as "foolish and even heretical".

It's easy to look back at Tyndale and see his views as correct and those of the masses as wrong. At the time, though, I'm sure there were hundreds of heretics who were wrong on matters for which the masses were correct. How do we differentiate them? At the time, Tyndale, in the eyes of most, was just another one of those heretics.

This is the real trap. There are times when I want to stand up and shout against opponents of evolution because I feel very strongly they are hurting the gospel message by creating an unnecessary distraction. On the whole, though, I don't do so because I don't want to add to the distraction or feel in any way puffed up. How do I overcome this dilemma? My conclusion right now is to write a book anonymously or to lead some online session using a pseudonym. As an individual, I still have to wrestle against pride, but I've decided that inaction is a greater evil.

Hear, hear.

 

Cornish Steve,

You give me a lot to think about and thought you haven't convinced me to change my mind-you do open up other opportunities to discuss issues.

As far as discrimination goes I think you are right about gays as far as we should not seek to treat them differently than any other sinner in need of God's grace (everyone). I don't think we should tolerate or promote sinful behavior in that area, and to me that includes wrong relationships before marriage or outside of marriage, not just gays. So I am not sure where you stand, but I think there is a big difference in not discriminating and tolerating. I have often said that the hype over Ellen coming out on public television was overly protested, because people did not protest promiscuous relations between opposite genders (maybe because it hit too close to home?). I am not saying I think Ellen should have done that, but if we are going to call out sin, we need to open up our closets first.

I STRONGLY agree with your viewpoint on prosperity preaching. I am not saying God does not prosper people, but to what level and how is different for everyone. I think my life is very blessed and I drive a 7 yr. old car (low-end model Saturn) and I have a job that pays well for my educational/vocational background although many make more. But the point is I have all the physical things I need plus some more. I have a problem with the fact that some of these preachers seem to leave out a whole bunch of scriptures about suffering and persecution. I hate to think what people who follow this line of thinking would do if their lives were in danger because of the Gospel they follow. I don't truly know how I would react. But, at least I don't expect sunshine and roses for every day of my life. We have so much and we take most of it for granted and want more and more (myself included).

As far as evolution goes-I believe that we were created as humans. I believe what it says in Genesis. It says God created man, not a glob that became man later on. But maybe we will have to agree to disagree on that one.:!:

 

In the Old Testament, the punishment for adultery was the same as for homosexuality - death. In other words, both are very serious sins. Jesus reached out to a woman who had been married several times and was now living with someone, namely an adulteress. What was his attitude? One of love and forgiveness as he drew her to himself. Only then did her heart change, followed no doubt by her actions. We're commanded to preach the gospel to all and not to find reasons why some can't enter a church. If we trust in the grace of God, he will work on their hearts. Personally, I believe that church leaders have the right to address sinful behavior among the saved; we don't have the right to criticize or discriminate against others in public life. As you rightly point out, we are all sinners. Some, praise God, are redeemed.

 

Cornish Steve,

I enjoy these "conversations" very much. I think it is OK to take a stand against sinful acts even outside the church, but maybe not in the way it is done sometimes. If I am going to tell people I believe that homosexuality is wrong, I better do it in a way that shows them that there is forgiveness for anyone and that I am no better than anyone who has committed this particular sin. I also have to stand against anything that God stands against, not just what is comfortable for me. And, as I look at my life I see sinful behavior. Maybe it is not in the "highly" contraversial areas, but it is sinful all the same. When I gossip-I am sinning. When I eat unhealthily-I am sinning. When I harbor thoughts of resentment-I am sinning. I could go on and on.

I think we need to reach out with love and forgiveness, as you pointed out, because that is how Jesus reached the lost and that is how much he loves us (the lost). His desire is to have a deep relationship with everyone he created and we cannot measure who He would prefer to have a relationship with over someone else, because there is not one He would prefer over another. I don't dislike gay people, I have enjoyed working with some people who have openly admitted they are gay. I just won't go to the point of agreeing with gay marriage. I think we can take a stand AND be compassionate.

We can go into so many other area of life and see where compasssion is needed. For instance drug addicts. I don't look at them and think "loser", I think of the person behind the addiction and how the bondage is holding them back. They need compassion. In fact, sometimes I don't like to watch some "Cops" because it causes me to think of how sad some people really are and how much help they need. The same goes for pr*stitutes (I didn't want thay word to get the site censored), I feel bad that they are probably feeling trapped and maybe they even feel worthless as people. But they don't need to feel that way.

The bottom line is- we don't know what people have gone through and what circumstances have led them to make wrong choices. I am not saying that there should be no accountability. But, come on-compassion needs to first and foremost.

Believe me I have things in my past that could have easily turned into addictions. I fortunately did not get that deeply involved, but I am no better than the ones who did. I still wonder and pray for one person in particular in my past when I think of her.

 

Forgive me for repeating something I posted a while back, but I think it's relevant. It's the story of a pr*stitute who was suicidal. When asked why she had not thought to visit a church, she responded "A church? That's the last place I'd want to go. They'd all look down on me and criticize me and want me to leave."

It's not for us to judge others as they seek the Savior. Instead, we should lift up the light of the gospel message and invite everyone to hear.

 

The real question is in your title. Can you trade Godly thinking for higher thinking? That would be saying that Godly thinking and Higher thinking cannot be the same thing. Higher thinking refers to a level of thinking and Godly thinking refers to a type of thinking. To me, what you are saying is like trading milk for a cup. One is a measure of amount and the other is a measure of type.

 

I agree 110%. This is one thing I struggle with about the local churches. They have the better than thou attitude. It drives me nuts when all I can think is that this is NOT how Jesus would have handled things. We need to be reaching out not shutting out.
I love to follow these conversations. I don't put in much but I learn a lot. Thanks.

 

I think you're right in a way. I may even be exploring this topic with the wrong question. It just seems to me that some very educated people rely (or start relying) on their own intellect instead of God's wisdom. Some of the things Jesus did on Earth looked foolish to some of the people. But who thought it was foolish. It seems to me that a lot of the people were well esteemed and intellectual. The Saducees and Pharisees were probably well instructed in their "religion", but they missed out on the "relationship" with the living God on Earth. I think sometimes people become so intelligent that they become unwise. Please note that I said sometimes. But you are right I may be comparing apples to oranges as they say.

I would say one of my intentions in this whole topic is to remember to keep everything in its proper place. I am a deep thinker, but I don't want that to get in the way of my relationship with my heavenly Father or my family (especially my son). I have often thought that if I homeschool him, I would be able to help him become more of an intellectual type. I have realized that it won't happen, and now I don't seek for it or regret that it isn't who he is. He was made by God and he has some really good insight when it comes to his relationship with Christ. That is what is most important. Anyway, I may be expressing my thoughts in a confusing way, but maybe that will clear it up some.

 

Being a deep thinker won't get in the way of your relationship with God.

 

True, but it's also not uncommon for the unwise to be unwise and the foolish to be foolish. I've sometimes heard people defend unwise statements by claiming that the things of God look foolish to the world - but that's no defense. In those cases, their words appeared foolish because they were foolish!

 

Steve, you crack me up! I have to say I totally agree with your statement. I also agree that those who rely on their own intelligence and ability are unwise. However, your statement is very....wise. lol. The things of God do look foolish to the world...it says so in the Bible. However, some use that to shield their foolishness instead of understanding that simple interpretation that a natural man does not understand the spirit.

 

There is a verse that says something like
Professing to be wise, they became as fools.

I don't see why we can't have Godly knowledge and Higher Learning both.
If our Higher Learning contradicts Godly Knowledge, then it is false learning.
Anything you are taught that contradicts scriptures is a lie. I know there is sometimes discrepancy in the interpretation of the Bible, but with careful study, prayer and input from others' views, most of those interpetation issues can be understood more fully.

 

I can think of several examples where "higher learning", if you will, had to struggle against wrong-headed interpretations of the Bible.

- Slavery
- Role of women
- Earth orbiting the sun

In some other countries, they'd add 'death penalty' to the list.

 

Yes but if the Bible is interpreted correctly, higher learning can not contradict it.
Those are obvious cases where scripture is interpreted to mean whatever they want it to.

 

True about Scripture being interpreted to suit peoples wants. That is sad. I think some people will justify what they do no matter what the Bible says.

 

i feel like as a Christian, i can invite the homos**ual to church and pray for them. I should be compassionate and kindhearted. Forgiving and honest about my sins as well. But, i do feel that it is our responsibility to point out their sin. In all honesty, some homos. really dont see their lifestyle as a sin. But according to the bible it is. So it is important to point out all types of sin, gossip, lies, jealousy, but not leave out the touchy ones like abortion, homos. , promiscuity, drunkeness, etc. Im just saying they all deserve to be acknowledged by the pastor and brought to our attention, through study of the scripture.

i am thought to be very loving and kind hearted. I have friends who are homos. but they know im honest enough with them bc i love them enough to show them where they are heading, and i expect them to be honest and love me enough to show me when im failing the Lord, in love and truth.

on the higher thinking versus Godly thinking- i believe you can have both, from Godly focus and thinking comes the true higher thinking!

 

I have to say that I agree with everyone...LOL. I know that those who profess to be wise become fools because that is what the bible teaches. However, there are still fools in this world. I don't think Steve is really contridicting anything that has been said. I am up past midnight so I maybe blurry eyed. lol. Peanutsweet hits the nail on the head though in her posts.