I have only read a few responses, but wow, what a difference of opinion there is. I think: 1. College is overated as the fix it, guaranteed way to success, or way to prove your intelligence. 2. That being said, I think it works well for some people. I think it can enhance your life even if you don't work in a field related to your degree (but just how much money are you willing to part with to do that--personal choice--some of the things can be learned by reading). 3. I think the types of classes forced on people who are going to work in something totally unrelated to those classes is archaic and a waste of time AND a way to insure the colleges get more of your money. 4. I think if anyone thinks they can force their kids to go to college (as in--it is not an option to not go) are WAY wrong. At that age they can choose whatever they want. 5. College can be good, wonderful, stupid, unecessary or all of the above at different times. 6. Yes, I am biased. Yes, I am opinionated, but I don't think I am more so than people who think it should be mandatory and that it is necessary for a full life.
Exactly Cabsmom40. Things may look very different by the time my children are in school. A lot of college is what economists call signaling. You are telling the world that you are an "educated" person who can make goals and meet goals. At some point I would think it would signal you aren't very good at determining the return on your investment if you are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a job at McDoanld's. I posted this here before but I'm sure many missed that thread. If you missed it you can check out the inflation of the cost of college here. http://wallstreetpit.com/30966-the-higher-education-bubble-its-about-to-burst I agree that many of the things one can learn in school can enrich your life I think that in our present age we are finding so many ways to do that. I just went to a free concert put on by a string orchestra that had everyone from teenagers to retired people playing in it. I see lists of book clubs, garden clubs, foreign language clubs. I was just enlightened about a website that I can use and speak to native speakers of the language I am trying to learn. Many of these things are so cheap, so much more efficiently provided and specialized to what I want to learn. Credentialing and signaling are the main reason people are willing to fork out the big bucks now days even if they believe it's great to get a liberal education and I think that is beginning to be threatened too. It should be interesting to see what the future holds.
Frogger, Wow, someone agrees with me. I am pushing the "Like" button and I don't even do facebook. You may get my point when I say that I think the whole educational structure should be changed. I don't think it ever will be, or at least not for a long time. Why? Because if they did change it to an actual efficiently functional system a lot of money would be lost and a lot of professors would probably be out of a job. Take the requirement for a great many majors to have to study at least one art class and oops! we don't have enough interests for all the teachers. Drop the higher algebra classes for certain degrees that have nothing to do with math--there goes a few more professors. Let people learn under apprenticeships--UH OH, now we are losing students. Doctors need to learn medical things and all about the human body and math (to a certain level). They even need to be able to read, but not Shakespeare. Do they need to take World History? Not for any practical reason. Artists need to be able to practice their chosen field of art. They should be able to study about past artists if they choose. They really don't need to be able to do calculus. On and on it goes... I never have heard it called signaling, but that fits. I think that whatever learning you need should be available to pursue. I just think there are way to many hoops to jump through. It is like saying you want to go from point A to Z, only to be told that you have to turn left and go to point C, then take a detour and go to point D, then backtrack and go to point L, and finally when you have visited all these points and jumped through all THEIR hoops, you can jump through the final hoop.
Yes, I want my kids to go to university! I went to a secular university and was stretched and challenged in many different ways. It was a good thing!! I learned to stand on my own feet and accomplish something on my own. I learned to articulate my ideas clearly and made friends with many people, broadening my own horizon. That being said, if one of my kids wants to do something else, I'm fine with that - but they need to choose that path... not just slack off and see what happens.
Personally, I think that education will change quite dramatically in the next decade. 1) Far more courses will be offered online so that students can complete them from home. This reduces overheads quite dramatically. 2) Education will become much more of a lifelong achievement. Most technical skills we learn today are out-of-date within a decade, so continuing education is crucial. What I'm all for, although I don't know whether it will happen, is for students to pick and choose different schools and instructors for each course - based on their caliber and reputation. Why should a student be forced to take math with a less-than-capable professor just because they are registered at a particular college? Instead, they should be able to take that course with a college and instructor anywhere in the country - or the world. Online education permits this. Since I'm qualified to teach physics, mathematics, and business at university level, I sometimes think about it - but I just don't like the current educational setup. Maybe one day I'll teach them using my own online system.
I agree with the choice thing. That would eliminate some of the bad professors and the good ones would have an opportunity to help more students.
The reason why it's not an option not to go somewhere for me is because I want them to at least try. I have a huge problem with I don't want to do it. I always tell my children to try no matter what. Even if it's one semester. If they decided that they don’t like it then they don’t have to go. They still have the choice but not without trying it out first. So them not going is Not an option and if they don’t go and they are home then they need to work and contribute. No one is going to lay around my house and do nothing , but me, especially if I am the one who has to be home to keep everything up. It’s the way I was raised, pull your weight or go to school. Grow up, stand on your own to feet! Next year DS may be going into 6th grade at PS, does he want to NO but because it’s junior high and we are in a very good school system now that we moved. I want him to try. He may like it better than elementary. He doesn’t have to do the whole year, only a marking period. If he hates it then he can come back home. I don't care as long as he tries. It’s the same with college, by the time my kids go you will need a degree to do everything or at least some college. Right now here where I live there are some customer service jobs that you can’t get without some college. That is just answering the phone. No skill involved really. I see nothing wrong with them trying it out.
I don't really know. I want them to if it's what they want to do. I want them to be prepared for College when they graduate High School. I was homeschooled along with my 4 siblings. I did not go to College but all four of them spent some time in Community College. Two of them graduated from Bible College, and the youngest is in his 3rd semester of Bible College. I took a few Bible College classes but did not graduate. I did very well in them though. I want most for my children to seek the Lord and what He wants for their lives. That may include College or it may not. I want them to be prepared for it even if they do not end up going.
Cricutmaster- I dont agree with them not having a choice. I mean most likely if you force them they aren't going to really try anyways and you will probably end up wasting your money, but I do agree with pulling some weight. If my son choses not to go, the he will still be expected to get a job and start preparing for when he moves out. If my daughters don't go they will be expected to help with the household duties. I would also expect them to find some church work or charity work to help out with. I will not force them to work in the "traditional" sense but they will be expected to keep busy doing productive activities. We are "old fashion" like that
I think the only way you can "force" them to go is to say, "If you don't go, you have to move out." But then again, they may just move out. I think you can push and prod and hope and pray, and maybe they will know how much you want them to do it and feel forced. The reality is though, that they cannot be forced to go. I really think we need to rethink somethings around the whole college or not mentality. I realize there are jobs out there requiring college just for the college hours and not for the specific skills required. I think this is wrong, but it does exist. The argument, from what I have heard, is that completing some college shows perserverence, and it may do that. That is NOT the only way to show perserverence though. What about going out and taking quilting classes and proceeding to make a number of quilts? What about voluteering at the church,hopital, or any other place and staying on for years? What about buying a piece of junk car and restoring it and making it beautiful inside and out? I never finished college (as least not yet). I have been a single mom from the time my son was born (his dad pretty much never even provided financial support or VERY little), plus now I am homeschooling, so I really don't want to add the extra burden of studying. I have shown perserverence in different ways. I don't change jobs at the drop of the hat. I have learned how to quilt and still enjoy it. I am still working on learning more Spanish. The point is-no one is going to give me a certificate saying how I stick with things. Honestly, I feel that I am a very good worker. I give it my all and try to come up with ideas to help out the company. My lack of a diploma does not stop me from being an asset to the company. The other thing I think we as parents need to realize is that for some people "book" learning is a drain on their emotions, energy, and time. These kids, or adults, do much better pursuing something that they can learn on the job. They could even be some of the best employees in a lot of jobs that require on your toes, minute by minute activity. They may even be more creative in finding solutions to problems in the work place. Had I not learned how to do what was necessary to pass classes (and do fairly well) with tricks (not cheating) I would have probably failed miserably. By tricks I mean memorizing things with the most oddball word associations. I also learned how to write essays and make them sound, perhaps, better than they really were. I had a hard time staying awake in school. I also enjoyed being active and outdoors. My mom used to have to call me indoors, while my sister was already there reading a book. Since then I have learned that learning is not bad and some of the college classes were interesting. The professors who involved us in the discussions were the best. I did NOT like the ones who just gave the dry boring type of lecture. My main point being--classroom learning is not good for some people, it can be very hard. Unless you have BTDT you may never really appreciate the difficulty it presents for some people.
Our second son graduated Georgia Tech in May with Honors. Like two-thirds of graduates from that school, which is highly ranked and mostly technical, he hasn't even had the sniff of a job. For the first two months, he spent eight hours a day sending applications and heard next to nothing back. Plus, almost all open positions were with the government. Almost always, for any job of note, the requirement was "minimum of three years' experience or a master's degree". So, he plans to return to Tech in January to complete a master's degree - working in Target or Starbucks to help pay for it. In a poor economy, and right now it's about as poor as it gets, you need an advanced university degree to get a decent job. I don't see that changing any time soon.
What about people who have never finished college, but make good money? OK, before you bash me, I know the numbers are not in favor of everyone doing this. I know I cannot change the system, but I can comment on it as much as I like. It is wrong and it should be restructured. Even if the whole system cannot change, I would like to see some small changes. I believe instead of refusing to hire your son, many jobs could benefit from hiring him at whatever level he is capable of performing at and letting him finish his learning while working. They may just find that he is capable enough now without the degree.
Just for the sake of comparison, what hourly wage would you consider a good starting salary? (whoever wants to respond) What wage is good for someone working somewhere for 3 years? What is a good retirement wage?
My husband is one such person. He has a partial degree but when he moved over here from the UK some of his credits didnt transfer so he never finished his degree. He started entry level and has worked his way up into a high paying position and the company he works for now sends (pays for it) him to classes to get certified in certain things, but they have never once asked him to finish his degree. We have found around here that the "over-qualified" are the ones who are having a hard time, but companies are willing to hire entry level because those employees don't demand as high of a pay rate and they are able to be trained exactly how the company needs them to be.
Considering they say the cost of your rent or mortgage should be the same or less than you earn in one week, I would say the cost of the monthly rent of a one bedroom apartment each week. So, around here that would be $700/week ($17.50/hour) or $36,400/year. I would say about 10%, (3% raise per year) above that.... so about $40,000/year ($19.23/hour). I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean if a retired person were to pick up a job or are you talking about income from investments?
My husband's niece married a guy who went to college and took every computer course available, through graduate level. He never took any other classes and never completed a degree. Once they were married (at 22 and 24), they started their own company. Within a few years, they were able to buy their own plane and get their pilots' licenses. They currently own a farm in Idaho and work from wherever they are. They 'break' into companies and help design better firewalls for their networks. They've done work for places like the department of defense stuff to all sorts of private companies. They married about 16 years ago and met over the internet, ironically enough. Probably not a typical experience though! LOL
Well, our family is full of entrepreneurs so yes I know lots of people who make good money who never went to college. One Uncle owned multiple businesses another started by fishing on the beach and ended up building a cannery. My Father never graduated from high school and has successfully started 3 businesses. He sold the first one so have cash to start the next one. He is currently operating two businesses. They are small but he has the ability to do what he wants and he employs other people. My mother never finished high school but then received her doctorate in Medical School. So she had college but no high school. My brother never finished high school or went to college but makes $140,000 a year with 3 months vacation. I think we need to be careful with statistics and how we use them but we also have to be careful with using one persons experience to make a judgment since everyone is different. I don't want to tell someone to not go to college because of those experiences but I also don't want to tell them they need to. Personal circumstances and talents are so varied. There is no taking risk out of life and honestly I think it would be kind of boring otherwise. Adventure is probably somewhat programed into my genetics though so others may prefer the boring life.
I guess I would be talking about the amount they are able to bring home from their retirement savings, if the investments don't crash. I make about $425 a week and that is after 3 years. I had to change jobs because the place I worked at 4 years ago closed. I really don't think that is too bad for no college degree. I have good health insurance and dental also. So, actually I probably make more like $500/week. I now I could do better in some jobs and I actually wish I had made up my mind on what I wanted to do many years ago. BUT, what I really want to do is work in missions. This requires a whole other set of disciplines and learning and maybe college or a Bible school. I am NOT looking to ever be rich and although I would like more money sometimes, I have a good life (yes, I am blessed with a low rent). I personally would like to go back to college, and I will probably have to take classes that are "unecessary" to my choice of careers. I will have to work within the system. I just don't agree with it. Frogger, I love your "name". It always reminds me of all the time I spent playing frogger on Atari (tells how old I am).
