I'd like to discuss brainwashing and how we can differentiate it from training a child in the way he should go. I deliberately didn't place this in the Christian only section because I believe this can apply to all of us. I recently had a discussion with a lovely young woman. She is a daughter of a well-known evangelist and has recently gone the way of atheism. She was speaking out against Christian parents starting brainwashing young. I thought about it for a bit and realize that we all brainwash to a degree. We all teach and share our opinions and beliefs with our children. Of course her beef is with Christianity, but she admitted that she isn't able to remain neutral with regards to Christianity. In our discussion I came to the conclusion that brainwashing isn't just exposing a child to your beliefs or ideas, but sheltering your child from other viewpoints. I believe Steve touched on that in an earlier thread. I was brainwashed as a child. I grew up in a cult so I lived a life sheltered from other ideas. It was only when I grew up and gained exposure to different ideas that I realized I had been only taught one viewpoint. All other viewpoints had been taught as incorrect, down right wrong, or laughable. I try to expose my children to different ideas from a young age. I want them to encounter things while still under my wing. I want to explore those issues and help answer their questions before they hit the parents are always wrong stage :lol: I want them to understand other viewpoints and know why others believe the way they do. This is why I avoid Christian science curriculum because from what I have seen it seems to involve putting down other viewpoints. Even if I don't believe a viewpoint or want my children to believe a viewpoint I want them to respect why the person believes as they do. How do you go about finding the balance between exposing your child to different ideas and training up your child in the way he should go?
I'm with you all the way on this. For some topics, e.g., math, there's no issue. For other subjects, e.g., history, it can be an issue. For a third category, e.g., biology/evolution, it's a major issue. For history, we made sure our children read history books from other countries. A hero in one country may be a villain in another. For example, we told our children a story about their grandfather. When he was down on his luck, he made money by finding American tourists visiting the city of Plymouth in England and offering them personal tours. He knew a lot about the place - from where the Pilgrims sailed, from where Drake spotted the Spanish Armada, and so on. Over time, he earned quite a reputation for these tours. On one occasion, a friend asked him to give a special tour to a visiting foreign dignitary. Upon hearing about the English hero Sir Francis Drake, the visitor, who happened to be a Spanish diplomat, muttered 'El Draco' the pirate, and that part of the tour ended! In other words, we tried to encourage our children to see both sides of every story. My concern in this area is that many books on American history portray the country's founders as all heroes and all Christians, neither of which is true. Our children need to see them as real people, with faults like the rest of us, and to understand why they took the actions they did. I know it's controversial, but biology/evolution is a major issue. We need to deal with this. I've heard so many stories of children from Christian families losing their faith at college, more often than not over this particular issue. It's because we've driven a wedge between faith and science, making one good and the other evil. At college, they may see for the first time that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming, that the science is pretty much proven beyond doubt. That forces them to wonder why they were never told this at home. Then they start wondering about other things that maybe they were not told, and this can cause big problems. When we as parents present faith and science as an either/or choice, choosing science inevitably means rejecting faith - so let's be careful about this. Accepting one must not mean rejecting the other. If our child becomes a world-famous geneticist who helps find a cure for major diseases, the price paid for this must not be their faith - and this has happened to some. Our older daughter understood both sides of this discussion before going to university. When taking first-year biology courses, she breezed her way through them. She told us several times, however, just how hard a time some other students had. They had attended "hard-line" Christian schools that rejected evolution entirely and were never exposed to important ideas in science, so they really found university courses difficult. This is just the academic side of the equation. Add to this the inevitable questions about their faith, and the extent of the problem becomes apparent. Personally, I'm very glad that we introduced our children to multiple viewpoints in every subject. As you point out, they are going to have questions when exposed to other ideas, so far better that we be around at the time. Knowing how strong-willed some of my children are, I shudder to think what would have happened if they had first encountered conflicting ideas when away from home and unduly influenced by college friends and professors. There's a time, when children mature into adulthood, that they seem to prefer and accept the opinions of their peers and of authority figures more than ours. They do grow out of this, but it's a dangerous time. It's not the time for them to find out that we've been highly selective in what we allowed them to study, because that could do serious damage to their faith and to our relationship with them. The other not insignificant point is that, on some matters, we may be wrong. How ever will we know if we don't take time to understand other opinions and viewpoints? Some parents see this as a danger, but I do not. If our faith cannot withstand comparison with other beliefs, it's not a faith worth having. Far better that it be torn down and rebuilt on a stronger foundation. (As a simple aside, I'm very much against being asked to accept everything taught in church. What if the preacher is wrong? It's my duty to go back, study, and verify. If no one did this, what errors might creep into the church?) Education is a gift to be accepted. If our opinions are forced on others and conformance is demanded, it's indoctrination. Finally, I do believe that our children learn more about us from the way we act than from what we say we believe. Do we live out our faith, or is it just words? Lessons learned from personal observation are far more important than lessons learned from a book. Sorry for the unduly long response.
I'd like to pose a different perspective here: I have a friend who refuses to teach her children about Jesus. She won't take them to church. She does not read to them from the Bible. But she herself is a conservative Christian. She insists that she has no right to "brainwash" them. She is terrified of "swaying" them one way or another towards Christianity. She figures when they're older they'll either come to a genuine knowledge of the truth, or they won't. Either way it's out of her hands. So, do you think it's possible to go too far when trying to avoid brainwashing? Or is this like the coat analogy?- You know that your child is going to be harmed by not wearing a coat in sub-zero temperatures, so you insist they wear the coat, like it or not. Do we have have a responsibility to "indoctrinate" our children towards the truth, even if we present the other sides of the argument with respect?
Yes. I think presenting the other sides of the argument is a form of more complex "indoctrination." In short, I expect learning and being exposed to many viewpoints will help solidify my children's beliefs. Continued exposure to the same viewpoint over and over will only solidify it if the child never encounters another valid or semi-valid viewpoint. Some people live sheltered lives their entire life, but most encounter different points of view that make them wonder at some point in their life.
We have also intentionally exposed our children to how the other half lives. We have used secular books quite a bit and then discussed the author's point of view. I want my kids to be well-versed in Christian and secular beliefs so that they can form their own defense of what they believe. We obviously teach our children the things we consider facts. I hope, though, that we have also taught our kids to remain teachable, yet unwavering in their faith as others will put up a good argument to draw you away. In the end, I will teach them more concerning the facts that support our faith because that is the litmus test by which all other infomation is to be processed.
I agree that we need to let our children see both sides while explaining and teaching why we believe what we do. All of my son's interests indicate that he may have a future in a science related field. Right now I'm using a Christian science curriculum with him because I like how it shows amazing creatures and points out that these details probably didn't just happen. However, as he gets older we will be talking about what other people believe and the evidence for it. I live in a very diverse, liberal University community so it won't be a problem at all finding people who believe differently than our family. As far as Amie's comment about brainwashing children, I'd have to disagree with her friend. If I truly believe that Jesus is the way, then why would I not show my child? Even if I'm not quite sure, why wouldn't I at least show my child and say "This may be the way, but I'm not positive."? Maybe she's letting the culture "brainwash" her child. That's kind of like putting healthy food in the pantry and leaving the junk food on the table and then wondering why your child never eats anything healthy.
Hmmm I don't think raising ones children to share their beliefs is brainwashing. Brainwashing is a term more used in my mind for not allowing someone to make decisions for themselves or not allowing them to see any other point of view. Embassy I am so sorry you grew up in a cult. And that's where brainwashing comes into play. Most families just do what they grew up knowing or what they personally believe to be in the best interest of their offspring. Cults in my opinion are more about the belief and not about the people. That's where real brainwashing comes into play. Take heart you are doing a wonderful job. And I congratulate you for escaping the brainwashing to have a healthy adult life. ((hug))
I was raised Christian- Catholic to be more exact. I was baptised, said my first communion, and we went to church every Sunday. When my father was constantly cheating on my mother (after physically abusing her before I was born) my mother sought counsel with the church. They told her to stick it out. At that point, we stopped going. When I was a teenager, I questioned the entire thing- I hated the fact that someone could commit a heinous crime, pay his church dues, and still go to Heaven. There are other things I question as well, but that was at the core of my own shift. I am not Christian now. And I don't want to brainwash my children, either. BUT- that certainly doesn't mean I don't expose them to what I believe. It just means I ALSO talk to them about what other people believe, as well. It can be a bit of a hard row to hoe sometimes, since they are constantly exposed to only one side- not mine. But I try my best to keep them as balanced as possible. That doesn't mean keeping them in the dark. For instance, death is a hard thing for ALL of us, and my children are no exception. My kids know my beliefs, Christian beliefs, Buddha beliefs, and even atheist beliefs on what happens after we die. The ONLY time I was discomforted and unsettled was when a Christian friend was visiting and decided to give my children a lesson on death and dying- it wasn't her place, and I didn't like her tone (she knew I wasn't Christian, but presented her thoughts as FACT, rather than how she felt). So I think.. my feelings on this are: my children DO know my beliefs. But they also know that there are plenty of people who completely disagree with me. I do not present Christianity in an ugly light- ever. At the end of the day, Spirituality is completely individual. (Spirituality and Religion are two entirely different things imho). And we each have to walk our own path. My responsibility is to show my children the banquet of choices, and let them select which one works for them. If that means tomorrow they want to start going to church, so be it. They have already asked, and I have promised, to take them to a church service. (and I don't agree with the coat analogy. I don't think if you aren't Christian, then you are d**ned. Sorry- I just don't buy that. I instill good values and good morals in my children because THAT makes them good people- and good people are 'saved', no matter what they believe)
My personal beliefs aside, the coat analogy is more, well.. OK, if you 100% believe that your beliefs are correct, why wouldn't you tell your children how to get to Heaven? (Not you, you... the general 'you') Even Penn Jillette, a seriously hard-core Atheist, understands why people who believe they are right have an obligation to share those beliefs. (Warning: I haven't watched the video in a few months, but I know he usually has a rather foul mouth, so don't click play unless little ears are out of range)
Actressdancer- If you believe that the only way to get to Heaven is xyz, then I agree, you have an OBLIGATION to teach that to your children. Is that brainwashing? I'm not sure I would say it is, even if I disagreed with your original premise that it is the only way. I certainly am not questioning any parent's goal of doing what is best for their children, which may include teaching them religion/spirituality is only done in one certain way. I just don't agree with it- so I choose not to do it with my own children. Does that make sense? So for us.. the coat analogy doesn't work. We ALL have to follow our beliefs. ALL of us. For some, that means following a specific set of teachings. I completely respect that. I will watch the link out of curiosity- but I don't think it matters to me if that person said that thing that day in that vid. As I said, I think Spirituality (and I suppose Atheism could fit into that category) is completely individual. Meghan
Sorry. I was only clarifying what I meant because I thought maybe you thought I was.. um.. I don't know. Maybe that I was starting a "the only way is my way" thing. That's not the direction I was going.
Yes, it is controversial. You really shouldn't make the assumption that everyone who weighs the scientific evidence on that issue and comes to a reasoned belief on it, comes down on the side of evolution and long ages. I also happen to know the son of a very well known evangelical author who rejected Christianity while in college. It had nothing to do with evolution, he felt that his parents had held their ministry as a greater priority than the needs of their children. This man now has a PhD in Philosophy and teaches at a very well known university. He is considered to be brilliant in his field, and yet he is a very sad man who is still bitter toward his parents. He was thoroughly steeped in evolution and it didn't inoculate him from rejecting the faith. He was even at a Christian college that teaches evolution when came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. My DH has a PhD. in inorganic chemistry from an ivy league university, grew up in a household where evolution was considered the only intellectually esteemed model, and also attended that same Christian college that our friend attended. They were even room-mates and best friends, but they came to very different conclusions about God and evolution. I think we all end up teaching our children from a certain world view. We may present opposing view points, but we likely do so with some bias. Even if you don't believe in any one particular religion, and desire to leave that open for your children, you are in fact raising them in the context that no one religion is the only way. That would be your world view.
Good point. I have personally seen this very thing happen over and over again. Family should come before ministry, but it often doesn't. It isn't so much an issue with non-ministry families, but if a child of a minister continually sees themselves put in last place it can cause an offensive attitude toward all things of God. I agree. We are all biased even if our bias is to stay neutral.
The reason why evolution is such a big issue is because too many Christian parents make it an either/or choice. EITHER you believe in young earth creationism OR you're a heretic. This puts our young people in a very difficult spot, because they're told that it's not possible to accept the science of evolution and be a Christian. Once convinced of the former, they feel compelled to reject the latter. Forcing them to decide one way or the other is dangerous and completely unnecessary. This doesn't happen with our faith and communism, for example. Plenty of Christian students embrace communism for a few years and don't lose their faith. We may not agree with communism, but we don't imply that Christianity and communism are mutually exclusive. This is the point I'm making. It's fine to express our preference, but it's not fine to imply you can't be a Christian and also believe in evolution. Millions of Christians around the world, and a big majority outside the United States, do exactly that.
Good point. I was talking about this with my husband the other night. We don't believe in evolution, but I'm teaching the creation/evolution ideas in such a way that theistic evolution is a viable option for my kids to take. I will share my viewpoint and why I believe what I believe, but what it comes down to is that I want my kids to know and understand that in the beginning God did it.
That's interesting. I live in the Northeast, where it seems most churches embrace theistic evolution. Our extended family is made up of PhDs and MDs, professors and theologians, who wouldn't even consider any other thinking on this topic: in their secular academic circles they are considered backward just for being Christian. We definitely don't live in the Bible belt, or a Christian bubble. You are right this should not be made into a salvation issue!
In all honesty, I haven't read all of the posts, only the first page, so forgive me if I echo someone else. I've raised three children who are now 21, 25 and 32. I raised them in the faith, with church being our "home". I raised them to help other people, take care of family and love God. We had our problems as a family, as all do. Their father was seldom there for them. Just a little background for what I am about to say. Now that they are older and making their own decisions, I have two who have left the faith. My oldest daughter I believe firmly, will someday return to it. Some things happened within the church that made her very bitter and she has never resolved or forgiven these issues. Some day the Lord will break her heart over this issue and she will return to him. Right now she is an atheist. She believes every person has their own "religion" and that all are equal. My ds is wild and unstructured in is whole existence. He is an anarchist at present, and believes in no power other than self. He doesn't pretend, at least. :roll: My youngest, a dd, seems quite firm in her faith, and again, I credit a lot of that to the wonderful leaders she has had in her life through her youth groups. She stands out as an example to her classmates and her church group co-members. Now, back to the OP - I always tried to teach them my faith but one thing I have learned. The choice is always theirs. When the Bible says "train up a child in the way he should go" I believe we are to simply do the best we can and let God be God. It is my firm belief that Christians, in particular, take too much authority on themselves. It is not up to us to make our children into good Christians. It is up to God and up to them. We need to show them the light, and that is all. I have the same philosophy about witnessing. Plant the seeds, water them. It is up to God to grow them. And I firmly do not believe there is some "magical formula" for success. As long as we are faithful and do the best we can, that is all God requires. Worry is a sin. Oh, we all do it, especially over our children. But we take too much upon ourselves and don't leave enough up to God. When you get to be my age, these things become more clear.......:roll:
