How many years of Phonics and Grammar

Discussion in 'Homeschooling' started by Meghan, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. Meghan

    Meghan New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just curious...

    How many years do you teach phonics?

    What about basic Grammar (just parts of speech, punctuation, Capitals, etc. NOT writing or spelling)?


    I noticed our phonics workbooks go through (I think) sixth grade. While my ds, new to phonics, might still need them at that point (though I doubt it), I started my dd on phonics between K and 1st. I have a hard time believing that she's going to take until 6th grade to learn the other 35 phonics rules we have left. Practice: yes. But dedicated phonics instruction including letter sounds worksheets? Not so much.

    Thinking a lot about this the last few days. Have looked at a ton of grammar curric lately (don't ask). Found an interesting study that said grammar instruction doesn't mean better writing skills (not sure I agree completely). Am just... thinking.
     
  2.  
  3. Jo Anna

    Jo Anna Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Phonics for me around grade 3 or until I know he is a pretty fluent reader. So, no later than 4th grade here and that is pushing it.

    Grammar until about grade 6, for me that includes how to write complete sentences with the proper forms, diagramming sentences, proof reading, etc.
     
  4. Embassy

    Embassy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you have a link to that study? I'd like to read it.

    I stopped Phonics at the end of first grade level for my oldest and went to a phonics/sound-based spelling program. My second child is completing phonics through the second grade level. They are good readers, but don't have a strong phonetic base. This isn't because I didn't teach phonics, but because my whole-to-part learners are somewhat backwards when it comes to learning.

    What phonics program are you using that goes up to 6th grade? I'd like to have a look at it:)

    Basic grammar just flows into more complex grammar. I don't plan on discontinuing grammar unless my child somehow masters the topic. I guess if he could do this effortlessly then I'd stop grammar: http://www.german-latin-english.com/dialit10.htm I had grammar in high school and in college as an English minor. I know that grammar helps me write better.
     
  5. dustinsdreamer

    dustinsdreamer New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    0
    I never used a formal curriculum for my oldest. Reading comes very naturally to him.

    My youngest son is in the first grade this year and is steadily working through Explode the Code. He started last year and will work through them this year. At this pace he will finish them next year in second. I can't see us doing phonics instruction past second or third grade. But, then, I haven't been there yet. :)

    As for grammar, I don't see that leaving our little school. I received little to no real grammar instruction in the public school system outside of the very basics in elementary school. I will be giving my sons better so they can write intelligently.
     
  6. Lindina

    Lindina Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    6,102
    Likes Received:
    11
    I'll do phonics as long as the student needs it. Most of the time, it's "done enough" by end of third grade, but I've had older students who didn't get it earlier who I continued in phonics much longer (perhaps with R&S's Developing Better Reading). Our "phonics" continues after that mostly with spelling, which I'll continue in one form or another, again for as long as the student needs it - maybe with Sequential Spelling (although SS doesn't focus on rules, it does do spelling patterns), or CLASS.

    Grammar will be continued through high school. After 8th grade, though, it is mostly writing - reports, essays, research papers, and the like, but including poetry and other creative writings as well, "touching up" the more complex aspects of grammar that way.
     
  7. Meghan

    Meghan New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's a link to the first page I visited (the author seems to agree that Grammar DOES help, but includes information on studies to the contrary):
    http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/writing.htm

    Here's a link to an article from 2005 that says it doesn't. THis one seems to be a newspaper or online periodical, so not a true scientific source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2005/jan/18/schools.uk4

    I remember learning true grammar in 6th grade, and then the other stuff just through corrections on my papers. I have more college English under my belt than any other subject. I wouldn't have said my grammar helped me, honestly, but seeing some of the work the younger students were turning in... uh.. maybe it helps more than I realize.

    We are using Spectrum workbooks for phonics practice. Nothing intense, certainly, but good review for our oral lessons. NOW: the phonics books for 4-6 are actually "Phonics and Word Study", the latter being code for Grammar :lol:, but in the 4th grade book most of it is STILL basic phonics.
     
  8. leissa

    leissa New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think I'm in the minority here, but I've never seen a phonics program go past 2nd grade. Maybe I'm just un-informed but I don't know what's left once they can read. As for grammer, the grammer program I'm planning on using doesn't even start till 5th grade. Of course, now I'm wondering if I have just screwed up my kids!
     
  9. dustinsdreamer

    dustinsdreamer New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hadn't even considered spelling as a sort of phonics study. It is, though. I started Sequential Spelling with my oldest this year and he loves it. He is learning the spelling rules through the patterns and I know he'll be an even better reader now. He is also continuing to learn that English just doesn't make sense. :D

    Thanks for that sharing that perspective.
     
  10. Meghan

    Meghan New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see some serious merit in this approach!

    I taught ds basic parts of speech (just nouns, verbs, adj, adv, and pronouns), plus punctuation, commas, and capitalization this past spring. He not only learned it really fast, he remembers it completely now. So although there are things still to cover, he has the very basics. And that was for 3rd grade.

    This year I'm going to expand that, but like all homeschooled kids, I rarely have to belabor ANYTHING. One discussion/sheet one day and my kids understand the concept (obviously this is a generalization, we hit struggles just like everyone else).

    And imho, although I don't have older kids yet, sometimes waiting makes teaching and learning easier. So if my kids can understand in a week of intense work all the parts of speech in 6th grade, OR I can spend 2 months working slowly on those concepts in 2nd well... :p Not really a hard choice.

    But again, I taught ds parts of speech et al because I felt it would help his writing (how do you tell a child that a different verb might be a better choice if you have to define 'verb' every time you ask?). And clearly some things are DIRECTLY related to writing: avoiding run on sentences, sentence fragments, correct punctuation, sentence combining...


    Another weird thing I've noticed is that different grammar programs label parts of speech differently. Sort of makes the whole things seem a little less precise, kwim?

    Anyway.. again.. just still thinking ;) And at this point, I'm one of those weirdos who never learned to diagram and never felt like I was lacking it, so that colors my perceptions :p. Oh, and I overthink things. That too.
     
  11. Embassy

    Embassy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks! I'll check out the links and the workbook.
     
  12. Emma's#1fan

    Emma's#1fan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    15,478
    Likes Received:
    0
    We did phonics up until 3rd, maybe 4th grade. Ems is in 8th grade and we are still working on grammar because it is very important. In fact, we will work on grammar until she graduates. I have college grammar books that I will use if I can't find any curriculum by the time she is in high school.
     
  13. ediesbeads

    ediesbeads Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2008
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    2
    My DS did phonics through 3rd grade. That's when he finished the ETC books. It took him a bit longer than it will take my dd, so I imagine she will go through 2nd. This year I started him on 4th grade SOS LA and it's a good fit for him! Right at his level.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

Total: 72 (members: 0, guests: 67, robots: 5)