I pretty much agree with this. The key though is MINISTRY. So many of church programs today are not ministry but entertainment. I don't think that churches should have ministry programs that they cannot afford. My kids have been in Awana. I've shelled out lots of money for it. I've been a director. But, I began to feel like Awana is not the outreach program it is presented as. Money is a HUGE obstacle to many that need to hear the gospel. (There are other things that I think take away from Awana being an outreach, but they have nothing to do with money.) I think Awana has become a church fad (like many other of today's church programs) in some respects.
Our church does Pioneer Girls (http://www.pioneerclubs.org/) for elementary school girls, and Treks (http://www.csbministries.org/site/programs/treks/) for elementary school boys. I don't know how much Treks costs (I don't have any boys), but Pioneer Girls is $10/year for the book, and about $6 (one time cost) for the sash. We have a mother/daughter camping trip (just one overnight, which is long enough for me to sleep on those awful cots LOL) in the spring for $45 each. Joy will be in 6th grade next year, so she'll be joining the youth group. (sniff, sniff...)
JOY IS 6th GRADE!!! NO WAY!!! Hey, Marylyn, (totally OT here) Rachael went to a Christian College Fair yesterday, and was very impressed with a school in Texas. I asked how close it was to my brother in San Antonio, and it was seven hours away. So I asked how far from you in Houston, and it was about six. She really was impressed with the school, but I don't think she wants to be that far away from friends and family! (Back to your regularly scheduled topic....)
My church charges for everything! If I didn't love the programs so much there is no way we would continue to pay. We pay $100 per year for each of our kids to attend Religious Education. It seems like a bit much as the instructors are volunteers and aside from the book there aren't a lot of additional costs... a few office supplies maybe? But regardless, I value the education so we pay. RE goes through 5th grade, then the kids attend youth group which is also $100 per year. They don't have formal books or curriculum, it just youth group! I decided it wasnt' worth the money and time driving to do that for my dd, so she attends a couple of different groups here in town (church is 30 min away) and enjoys it just as much!!
Sometimes I think the Mormons are dead-on and this is one of those times: Not a single red-cent exchanges hands in the church! (Tithes/offerings are contributed separate from the church service. Though I'm not sure of the exact details.) A friend who does couponing seminars in churches was asked to go to another friends' Mormon church. She usually charges a "love offering." That wasn't an option. They don't allow anyone to use the church if they charge a dime, even in an offering situation. (matter of fact, my Mormon friends had never heard the terms "love offering" or "free-will offering" before)
Amie, Wow, I never knew that.... Sounds good to me! I hate it that everything seems to be about money. Especially now, we are earning less and prices on everything are going up! I can't stand it.
The church I use to attend has money boxes in the back against the wall. They rarely actually collected an offering.
I know of churches that just have the money boxes. I LOVE that idea, since giving should be between you and God. I have heard that churches with anonymous tithing generally receive more in tithes/offerings (not sure if it is true). I also have issues with pastors knowing what people give (ours does). A friend and I were talking the other day about how check-writing, tithing envelopes, and tax-claiming has affected tithing. Are people tithing so others will see how much they give, for a tax claim, or as a worship experience? We agreed that cash-not in a labeled envelope-is the way we prefer to give.
I like the tithing envelopes. You don't have to use them. It's a choice, and it's a nice choice for those who prefer it. We don't tithe to get a tax return. We tithe because the Bible says you should...for many reasons. However, it IS a nice blessing in return when it does help our tax return, since we struggle to make ends meet regularly. It's one way God blesses us back. If someone isn't comfortable with putting money in an offering plate, using tithing envelopes, or tax-claiming...then don't use those choices. After all, they ARE choices. Even money boxes are not completely anonymous. I'm sure 'someone' will see you put something in it when you do if it's done during church hours. If someone would prefer a more anonymous kind of route, I'm sure most churches are not going to complain if they get an anonymous money order in the mail. There are ways around it, so you can tithe the way you feel most comfortable, even if churches don't offer an anonymous box. I'm glad we have choices, because not everyone is comfortable with the same way. ETA: Our church has selected officials (the finance committee) that count the money after each service. It is then put into a safe and they take care of all transactions, etc. Only those select few know how much is given either by cash, check, etc...and one of them is NOT our pastor.
To clarify, I'm not saying any of the things mentioned above are wrong-- just that we were having a discussion about whether or not those things affect tithing. I haven't always given anonymously--I've used the envelopes, written checks, and given cash. The fact that our current pastor knows what people give influences our decision to give in cash for now. I don't think we've ever claimed my giving on taxes, but I don't think we've ever done itemized taxes.
We always claim giving on taxes, but if the government decided that it was no longer tax deductible, we'd still be giving at the same level. As someone else stated, we give to God as an act of worship and out of obedience to what He ordained in His Word. It has nothing to do with the government.
I'm sorry if I came across like I was pointing at you...totally did not mean to come across that way. Just putting in my two cents about the whole anonymous box convo. :love: One of my best friends went to a church that closely monitored everyone's tithing. She even got a phone call one day that said "We noticed you haven't been giving your 10%", and then was proceeded to be told what she should be giving! :shock: Needless to say, her and her family left that church pretty much instantly. I can understand one wanting to be more anonymous, especially due to these kinds of actions or to avoid situations that are similar. I'd probably be safe to assume that there are more churches like that out there as well, which is quite sad.
Same here. Our pastor sometimes reminds us that it also allows us to let go of the stronghold that money tends to have on us. :love: Especially in this day, where money plays such a vital role in our lives, some tend to become over-consumed by 'things', and we tend to not trust God to just provide for our needs (which He always does).
Money is a big reason people leave the church. My grandmother stopped going more than 30 years ago because the priest said, from the pulpit, that he was sick of people putting 50 cent pieces in the plate. He said anything less than paper was unacceptable. She had been taking another woman who was very, very poor. That woman felt so humiliated, as if he was speaking directly to her... because every Sunday she faithfully put a 50 cent piece in the plate.
And I can completely understand why someone would stop going to a specific church, if that is how the church operates. It's completely out of line.
Our church has homeless people in it. I seriously doubt that any of them are "big givers". If they put 50 cents into the plate, our pastor would consider it a big blessing. I've no doubt that God will hold that priest accountable for that comment!!!
Our pastor has NO clue who gives how much or even who gives. He only knows the total amount. Our church also has a counting ministry. I am on it. We are the only ones who know how much is coming in in tithes and the extra money people give and where they want to designate that extra money. If any of the counters shares who gives what or who gives how often, we are no longer allowed to work in this ministry because tithing is between the person and God.
It is a shame that money is a reason why people leave a church. Either they leave for reasonable reasons, such as the example you shared or sometimes they leave for the wrong reasons; they get upset because they have a false understanding of how money is used in a church. This is also unfortunate. Sometimes people do not realize that churches are non-profit and they have to pay all their bills with tithes. Depending on the size of the church, expenses can really increase. Churches need money in order to maintain the place of worship. I also believe it is our responsibility to care for the building. After all, it is a tool for God's kingdom. Again, I am talking about proper use of church funds and not an abuse or false expectation from leadership. I have actually heard people say they left a church because the pastor preached on tithing once in a great while. Our pastor does not like preaching on tithing because it makes people skuirm. But he makes it a habit of preaching on tithing once a year, not to make people feel bad but to remind people that we have a responsibility to God and if God took the time to mention tithing in the Bible, then the topic of tithing is good enough to be preached at the pulpit.
Maybe slightly off topic, but tithing is God's basic formula for giving back. He also tells us to give of our first fruits, which we practice in our home. I have to tell you that our tithing has kept us bringing in just enough money to meet our needs; however, giving of our first fruits (and whatever else we have that another needs) has been a much, much greater blessing. Our garden seems to overflow, literally. Tithing is what's required, but He tells us to test him and see that He doesn't pour out so much we can't contain it. Makes me wonder what would happen if we started giving more than our tithe plus a couple bucks more...hmmm...
