Not sure how to explain this or if anyone else has every had this issue, but my kids (especially dd14) are very black and white thinkers. Things are either right or wrong with no in between. In some cases, this is really good. I don't worry about my kids lying to me or sneaking around to do something they shouldn't. In most cases, they wouldn't do it in the first place but if they did, they would feel so guilty they would confess pretty quickly. However, there are some instances where it causes problems for us. One example that happened recently was when my DH sent dd14 into the gas station to buy him a drink while he was pumping gas. He handed her his bank card to pay for it. She was nearly in tears because she thought it would be wrong for her to use his card, even though he had given her permission. In history, we learned about Hammorabi (probably spelled that wrong) and his code of laws. There was an activity for the family to make up it's own rules and consequences. One of the things my kids came up with was that if they watched television or played on the computer before their schoolwork was done, they were grounded from electronics for two days. They were so strict on themselves that they would come and tell me they "accidentally" watched television when they went to put their laundry away (the television in my room is always on and turned to a news channel). DD14 grounded herself for getting on dictionary.com even though I told her to and it was part of her schoolwork. One more example for dd14. Her grandmother bought her some really nice Nike tennis shoes. She had some old cheap, worn-out Wal-Mart shoes that she preferred to wear. I told her that out of respect for her grandmother, she needed to wear her good shoes when we went out somewhere. After that, she would wear nothing else. We had talked about wearing flip-flops to Tae Kwon Do because they're faster to put on and take off, but she didn't want to hurt her grandmother's feelings. I don't think I'm explaining the issue very well, but I hope someone who's been there can get what I'm saying and help me out! Thanks!
I do get what you're saying. I say let 'em! There's enough grey in the world. As they get older, they'll learn where the "smudging" starts soon enough. At their ages, black/white and "letter of the law" thinking is quite common, and IMHO it's a good thing that establishes good habits for later on. Just be aware of how they think, and adapt. You may need to explain about things like "permission to use the card" and when "going out" means the good shoes and when not, but all in all, be very happy with them. There are kids in the world who seem to be born with NO sense of boundaries, NO black/white it's ALL shades of gray, and champion liars from the first word they speak. Life is infinitely harder with kids like that. Ask me how I know.
Grey areas are very hard for developing minds to understand because lines can so easily become very fuzzy quickly. I try to make my children understand some grey areas like this..I'll give examples since I am not sure how to put it all into words... You can be honest and tell someone that the color of their shirt doesn't suit them, but only if they ask..there is no point in possibly hurting someones feelings because of your opinion. If someone gives you permission to use or do something ..like the card like you mentioned.. it is "right" to do so because they have given you permission and it is right. NOW..if someone tells you that it is okay to steal something..that is NOT right because it is morally incorrect to steal something even if someone has told you it is okay. You still have to use your moral judgement. Let alone the fact it is against the law. If someone gives you a gift, it is okay to not like the gift, but you should thank them and be appreciative of the gift and if it the item is clothing..like you mentioned..you should wear it to show your appreciation..unless the person who bought the item is understanding and would allow you to return the gift for something you could better put to use. You have to weigh the persons feelings before you decide to ask to return the item. It is always better to err on the side of preserving someones feelings before your desires. This is all hard stuff, but maybe you could set up scenarios and ask how they might react and correct as necessary. Use your real life situations to help.
I have been there, done that- myself. I still have a hard time with some things. For example, at my job (I work at a factory) we are supposed to write down the time when a machine is shut off for whatever reason. I have to mentally work through this. Sometimes I am not sure what time is was shut off because many things are going on at once and you can't always look at a clock and write down the information at that time. I think in my head, "if I write down 3:43 and it was really 3:42, then that is not true." I have been able to deal with this by telling myself that if I estimate the time to the best of my ability, then I am being honest. BUT, I have to work it out in my brain almost every time. I was similar to your kids when I was young. I didn't lie too often, but when I did I had to confess before I could sleep.
We would discuss gray areas over dinner. Some would be trivial; others would be heart-wrenching. Of course, there's often no right answer. - What about the 9-year-old in Brazil who was raped, found to be carrying twins, and would die if she carried them to term? Is it right that she should die because of the actions of her stepfather, or is it OK to abort the twins? (This example, for sure, generated some intense discussion.) - What about the French family who hid a Jewish family in occupied France during WWII? A German soldier stands at the door and asks whether they are hiding a family. Is it right or wrong to lie? - What about the child born with both sets of sex organs? Doctors 'made' the child into a boy, but the child always knew that she's really a girl. Is it right in adulthood for the 'boy' to have a sex-change operation? (This is based on a real story, and the 'woman' married and had a child.) - What about the convicted murderer on death row who pleads his innocence, and the victim's family are his biggest supporters of a retrial or sentence commutation? Is it right to still execute the prisoner? - What about the millions of frozen embryos not used by fertility clinics? Is it OK to use them for stem cell research, and finding a potential cure for some of the world's most debilitating diseases, since the 'potential' children will never be born? - What about the husband whose wife really does not look good in a new dress with which she is particularly pleased? Is it OK for the husband to lie and say that it really suits her, or is it better to hurt the wife's feelings by being 'honest'? - What about the dad running late while driving his children to the airport to catch a flight to see their grandparents? Is it OK to break the speed limit to make the plane, or should they miss the flight by sticking to the limit? To my mind, it's in discussing questions like these that our children really grow and learn. Black and white are easy; gray defines character.
My first thought was it might be a maturity issue. At 14 the brain is (ETA: NOT! I thought it, I just didn't type it LOL At 35 my typing skills are not fully developed!!) fully developed. Another thought is personalty. Some people will ALWAYS see everything in black and white. My mother, at 70 years old, has always been a very black and white person. I agree with Lindina, so many people today live in the grey areas, I'd not push it. Developmentally, she's at that age where she's really trying to figure out the world and how it works and how she fits in it and what she thinks about it. Experimenting with self-discipline at this age is normal. I say as long as she isn't guilt ridden, or suffering from inferiority complex then it's just her personality to see things in black and white and that isn't a big problem that needs fixing. If it's harming her self image or causing guilt and depression then maybe some counseling with a pastor or youth pastor or a therapist might help her see the grey areas of life and deal with the guilt of not always having the 'correct black and white answer' Or honestly, maybe just a weekly discussion group with a group of teens discussing current events and moral issues might help her to see how others view the grey areas (you know, since sometimes just hearing the same thing from a different source gets through to us)
Actually from the studies I've read, a brain is not fully developed until age 25 - done growing in size maybe... but not developed. We went over this in the Driver's Ed class as well as our foster care class (I'll see if I can find the study it refers to) Sometimes I WISH my kids had the black/white issue - they see too much gray Such as we have discussed with my 15 year old that he can use the truck when he is old enough to drive. He leaves out the "old enough to drive" and goes out and tries to drive it around the farm (which would be fine - and it's a manual trans and he's not good at it).... :roll: I used to write "permission" slips for my cc use for my kids if they needed it. That made them feel better as they had a piece of paper authorizing it.
Most youngsters and youth I know are VERY black and white. Personally, I think this is very normal and not a problem to be worked out. As they mature, and we all are maturing until the day we die, they will start to see more gray areas. A lot has to to do with how they perceive life. An adult and minor live different lives even if they are in the same home. Becoming an adult has a way of forcing people to see the grays in life.
It could also be OCD, but I don't say that to scare you. I have OCD and this is one way it manifests itself (and I am 42). I have learned for the most part to recognize my OCD thoughts and then work through them. I am telling you this just to bring another possibility into the picture. Not all people with OCD "do" things recognizable as OCD. Sometimes it is assumed that people with OCD will "do" rituals and such, but there are pure mental forms and combinations. This may not be the case at all. But if it is it can actually be a relief for your kids to know they are not alone. I was VERY relieved after reading a book about people with OCD because before reading it, I had no idea what I was going through. Do they have problem making decisions? I think that goes along with it also (I haven't researched that, but from what I have experienced and seen in my son it seems common). Do those things that they are scrupulous about really get under their skin if they don't stick to the plan (like their punishment that they decided on)?
This is something worth researching, although my gut reaction is that it's not the case. I've also thought maybe Asperger's from some of the things I've seen her do, but just not sure. We ran into another situation just this week. Our church is doing a fireworks stand and were asking people to sign up to help. My mom signed up to work. dd14 decided that she wanted to do it, so she was going to sign up on Sunday after church but we forgot. She was upset because she wouldn't be able to help even after I offered to call the church office and let them know she wanted to help. Then, on facebook, they were begging for people to come help. I told her and she agreed to go, but I could tell it was still bugging her. Then, I found out that you had to be 16. She was so relieved to hear it because it got her out of "breaking the rules" by going when she didn't sign up.... Don't get me wrong, I'm so proud of her for sticking to her standards on moral issues and for not going along with the crowd. But sometimes it's to the extreme and makes her life so much harder than it needs to be. KWIM?
I agree with you, Dana. I think Josie must have typo'd on that one statement. And I can't tell you what study it was either, but I have a BA in psychology and read/was told the same thing "back in the day". It's the whole reason why in some cultures people aren't considered mature enough to be listened to until they're 30, even if they're considered "adults" at age 12-15.
I have a friend that is very black and white. There are little to no gray areas in his life, and it's really refreshing. Too often poor choices are brushed aside as "gray areas". Be thankful your children have such integrity, but make sure you discuss situations as they arise and explain why that action is okay in that situation. Also, make sure you respect their convictions. If they are really uncomfortable with something, don't force it.
Maybe you could (and you probably already do) speak to her when these things come up and explain that it isn't breaking the rules to help out at the fireworks stand if you didn't sign up. Just gently explain and see if that helps. Again, you probably already do this, but I am wracking my brain trying to think of things to help her. I think this is a more common problem than some people think, although it is obviously not the majority of the population or we would see a lot more honesty. If you think about some religions, they fall into this category (at least in my mind). There are many religions that seem to think that there are certain do's and don't's to be a Christian or Jew that aren't really spelled out in the Bible, but just expanded upon.
I agree with you completely. Some believers are totally black and white, to the point where they cannot accept that others in the same faith have different opinions. I understand that, and it's usually OK, but not when the name-calling starts or less-than-subtle hints that you can't be a true believer. At that point, I just turn off and leave the person to their opinion; there's just no point arguing. So, while I agree that it's good for children to have a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong, I do think it's important, at the right time, to have conversations with them about gray topics. What's particularly important is for them to realize that not everyone agrees on some topics, and sometimes there may be no absolute right or wrong answer. Indeed, what is right for some people may be viewed as totally wrong by others. More often, what is traditionally viewed as OK in some cultures may be an absolute no-no in others. That's real life, and it's important to understand it and to accept it. Indeed, depending on the context, I view it as a sign of maturity when my teenaged children disagree with me about something.
That was sort of the point I was making. I was referring to, for example, all the rules in some strict Jewish cultures. I have read that some Jewish people won't even turn on lights on the Sabbath, but will have special lamp shades that they can turn in order to control the light. I guess turning a switch is work, but turning a lampshade is not. The same thinking is behind the Kosher rules from what I understand. I believe it comes from one Bible verse. You are right though. There are some Christians where if a woman is a real Christian she will not wear pants. Or REAL Christians can't drink a drop of wine. I think that people that follow those religions or denominations might find comfort in having someone else tell them what exactly is right and wrong.
My children are younger than yours (oldest is 9) but I hear you on that black adn white thing. I tend to discuss certain books that I've read or movies that I've seen. A recent example is The Shawshank Redemption. (possible spoilers beware!) They were very very confused. Why was an innocent man in jail? Why did the guy who was guilty get to go free eventually? Why were the inmates good guys, and the police officers bad guys? Children are trying to understand the world around them. We give them rules, and the rules make sense. Breaking those rules means all bets are off. And that is a scary thought to a child. Like pps said, talk, talk, talk to them! My two cents
You're a woman wearing pants? You're a man with long hair? You smoke? You read Harry Potter? You visit the movie theater? You believe in evolution? You have gay friends? You drink wine? You believe in gun control? You shop on Sundays? You're a Democrat? You don't tithe? You have Muslim friends? You believe the earth is old? You don't agree with Rush Limbaugh? Then you must be a papist, heretic, and liberal. Get thee behind me, Satan! Anything we can do to instill tolerance and understanding and respect for others in our children over these and other topics is a plus. Much of life is gray.
This just came to me, maybe it will help.... I believe it is Kay Arthur who says, "There are spine issues, and there are rib issues." Spine issues are the non-negotiable, black and white subjects. In Christian Theology, these would include the death/resurrection of Christ. If you don't believe Christ was crucified by rose again, you have no foundation for being a Christian. Spine is core and necessary. Rib issues (in this example) would be things like pants-wearing-women. It doesn't matter two hoots in the whole big scheme of eternity if I wear pants but you do not. We can agree to disagree while maintaining our individual salvation. Secular life works the same way. There are certainly absolutes, but there are many more rib issues. They do help support society, but they are not quite as vital as the spine (she once gave an example of a man who lived with only four ribs; yeah, life was rough, but he was alive. Don't think you can say the same about the spine as a whole).
Thank you! That does make sense and I think I can use that with them all. I see an anatomy lesson in our future!
