But constitutionally, it IS their right to do so. If the ederal government isn't meeting the needs of the people, or are trampling on their rights, then they have the right to remove themselves from the Union. What's so different from what the original colonists did? And I also believe that Lincoln was wrong in not letting the Confederacy go.
It is their right, certainly. But the country has been united for so long that seccession now would be a horrible ligistical nightmare. Imagine if CO for example, decided to seccede. We are smack-dab in the middle, so we'd have to fortify our borders all around, invent some sort of border patrol, make new passports, invent a new healthcare system, government, laws, etc. Not that the rest of US would attack us, but every country should have some means of protecting itself, etc. And then the in- and outflux of immigrants, think of that! I just cannot begin to imagine how we would even do all of this! And Lincoln, the Civil War, all those lives lost, for what?
Oh, yes, it would be a mess, especially if, say Colorado, Iowa, and Tennessee were to decide to break away and unite. When the South broke away, at least they were all conneted. As far as the Civil War goes, think of the lives that would NOT have been lost if they were allowed to go peacefully. The problem is that the Federal Government has slowly moved further and further away from the Constitution. The Constitution CLEARLY states that the Feds' responsibilities are specifically stated; anything unsaid is up to the individual states. I'd say 90% of what the Feds are involved in today is actually unconstitutional (including income tax!).
It would be a mess-but if you look at which states quickly got the number of signatures to secede (25,000)...it looks a lot like a southern thing. It looks a lot like The Confederacy. Texas, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, North Carolina and Tennessee ...Toss in Mississippi and South Carolina and you have a nice cohesive glob of land that could create a new nation. If you want to know the truth...many southerners haven't stopped thinking about secession since 1865. I don't think this isn't some knee-jerk reaction to an election-election time is just a good time to campaign for secession...
Having just returned from Cornwall, this discussion reminds me of the Cornish nationalists. Cornwall is an ancient Celtic country, had its own language and distinct culture, still has a parliament with some lingering historical meaning, but now is dominated by the English and the parliament in Westminster. For all intents and purposes, it's just a county in England - although that's not how the Cornish see it. We're proud of our differences, of our heritage, and it's a badge of identity. Occasionally, someone will stand in front of people and claim we should be separate - and there is a Cornish Nationalist Party (Mebyon Kernow) - but it's meaningless bluster. You can't change reality or rewrite history. Cornwall is now part of England, dependent on England, fully integrated with England, and a good percentage of residents are English. When locals feel frustrated, someone "down the pub" may rant against the English and earn a few cheers about becoming independent, but it's no more than that. It's OK to cherish your heritage, but it's futile to think that Cornwall could separate from the rest of Britain. As I wrote earlier, I can't help but find it amusing how this discussion takes place when Republicans lose an election (I remember the same thing when President Clinton was reelected). Eight years ago, when a couple of celebrities suggested they'd leave the country if George W Bush won a second term, Republicans mocked them and called their comments infantile and just sour grapes. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and it's Republican supporters looking for a way to "leave" the country. Having traveled the globe many times, I'd suggest that problems in the US are the kind of problems other countries would like to have! You can't have an open discussion in some places without risking imprisonment. Minorities in some countries face daily oppression and have little hope for the future. The standard of living elsewhere is peanuts compared to the US. Americans ought to be celebrating all that's good in the country, things that ought to bring people together regardless of their political persuasion, not getting all upset because their side lost an election. (Sorry if this comes across negatively.)
DOn't you think that that is exactly what's happening now? I mean, Obama is trying to enact a GLOBAL weapons treaty to leave the people without arms to defend themselves (don't give me any mumbo jumbo about keeping them away from criminals because they can get them no matter what). First, we're defensless, then what? Some people here CAN'T have an open discussion about the Pbama administration around here! I was talking ot my husband in a walmart 2 days ago, about Obama taking guns away from American's, and my husband said, "He'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers." and some lady behind us said, "Excuse me! You need to have respect for the President because he rules us now, and your just a racist pig!" This isn't the first time it's happened either! People are openly hostile about the election! Yes, we should all get together, and be happy and thankful for what we have, and I am...for now...until it's all taken away! I wish somebody would name me a couple of GOOD POSITIVE things he's done for our country!! (I'd move south too)
Being in GA I can't believe you've never heard people talk of "The south is gonna rise again" and even being for another civil war, if that's what it takes, for the southern states to secede. This really isn't new talk or a new issue for many conservative, southern Christians. I hear it all the time, all year, every year from many people. It's just with the election, more people are now talking about it publicly. Obama winning just gave these people a platform. I assure you the events of the 1860's haven't left the mind of many a southerner who doesn't like seeing our federal government getting bigger and bigger. (and I'm not talking about aryan brotherhood and white supremacist wanting to create a nation so they can have slaves) Do we benefit from big government, sure we do. But as the saying goes A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.... and that is exactly where our American government is heading. So honestly, yeah it would suck big time for a while if the southern states were to (which I don't see happening-even through war, we'd lose again) form their own nation and lose federal funding. The first step would have to be to set up a new system of government - not to model it exactly like our current government because eventually we'd only end up in the same situation as we are now. Federal government was never meant to have this much power by our founding fathers, but men, being human and flawed, like power-and how much more powerful are you ruling over an entire nation than just a state... We would have to become pioneers again. A brave group of people who work together to find their way in our new circumstances. And I have no doubt that we could, over time, do just that. But it would be a rough (and poor) road. But I, personally, think it's worth it. Sometimes, the best or right thing to do isn't the easiest thing to do. But I see that as where our country is heading. Seriously. I believe in my children's lifetime that Christians will be persecuted in America. I believe in my children's lifetime being a Christian will be considered a 'hate crime' (thank you, Westboro Church:roll I think we can celebrate what is good in our country without turning a blind eye to what is wrong. I don't think wanting to improve and correct problems means you're not grateful for the good and what is right with our country. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.
Minorities in THIS country are facing similar oppression with little hope! I am keeping my guns, thanks. Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who didn't.
A majority of people in this country just voted for the person they believe, as president, will most "improve and correct problems." In fact, he won rather easily. What you believe is a wrong direction is the one a majority believes is the right direction. This is democracy at work, right?
I'm trying to wrap my head around why there is such a distaste for more social policies in the USA. What is it that will make it work in many other countries make it not work for the USA? Is is part of the culture? Or is it that our country will not have the money other countries do because 1/2 of our tax dollars go towards the military/defense spending? I've heard so many tales of woe especially since the election. I read today where someone pointed out the similarities between Hitler and where Obama is taking us. I just don't get it.
Yes. I agree. Those who voted a certain way have been accused as having no values. They have values - different ones.
I don't get it either. Outside the US, a majority of Christians are left-wing, not right-wing; guns are anathema and totally contrary to the spirit of Christ; social programs are viewed as the practical outworking of Christ's love for the poor and needy. As for equating Obama with Hitler, isn't it Godwin's Law at work? Maybe things are looking up, though; he used to be equated with the Antichrist. :twisted:
okay, I'll jump in. I haven't read the whole thread, but I will bite. One thing that I believe that we must realize is that we as Christians are SUPPOSED to face difficulties. When the majority of the nation votes for someone who is opposed to many of the values of the Bible, the problem is not with the GOP candidate. Because we all know that most of our nation DOES NOT ESPOUSE CHRISTIAN VALUES! It doesn't take long to figure it out. Turn on the TV or the radio, go watch a movie or just sit in the park. You will see it soon enough. Most of the people in our nation are not Christians. And THAT IS OKAY! God calls us to be pilgrims and strangers. Do you think that the early church had it easy? Do you think that the disciples and those who followed Christ in the first centuries whined and cried about their leaders? NO! They expected to have trouble. Because JESUS SAID THAT THEY WOULD! They expected the government to be corrupt. They had the solution to the evil. We Christians in America have become so spoiled to faith that doesn't force us to take a stand that is meaningful. I believe it is one reason that the Church in America has no power and believers are not living any different from the unsaved. Our faith costs us NOTHING. (gross generalizations I know!) If the church in America becomes persecuted, then we will be not different from many areas of the world in every era of time since Christ lived. And it will show the world that we as Christians have a faith that is meaningful. WRT to social programs....my problem is that these social programs are a bureaucratic mess. People who really need help are left out in the cold so to speak (those who are working, but make too much to qualify for help, but not enough to make ends meet) while others get benefits to pay rent and buy food and get paid just enough from minimum wage jobs to buy fancy gadgets. I don't have an answer though. About guns...I have them. We have a farm and hunt. We never know when we will need to put down an animal or find a poisonous snake. I also carry a handgun (legally licensed) This came about because I live in a rural area and had an encounter in a deserted area with a strange man that completely creeped me out. If he had tried to come after me, I am not just going to stand there in the spirit of Christ and allow myself to be raped or worse. I hope that I never have to use my weapon against another human. I believe I would have to be in therapy for YEARS. But as my dh said, simply having the weapon pointed at you is enough to make most predators turn and run. So all you anti-gun folks, remember that many of us with weapons are peaceful people. (I raised plenty of eyebrows at church when I mentioned that I am anti-death penalty... I can't see Christ being pro-capital punishment and He is my model) We are not all getting ready to rise up against "gov'ment" Some of us are hunters. Some of use just enjoy shooting. (It is quite fun!) Some of us need them for farming. Please examine your generalizations. Guns are tools. Just like bows and arrows, baseball bats or knives....You can kill a person with any of these. Just because you have them and enjoy them doesn't make them or the person who owns them un-Christlike.
Forgot the whole point of my post... I am a Southerner. I don;t think succession will be the answer. I think that no matter what, my faith, my passion, my hope should be in the Lord. When I get my eyes off of that, I get into trouble. Political planning and plotting just leads to tragedy. Besides, I thought the succession question was settled about 150 years ago anyway.,
