When someone tells me (as they did to my face) that I am a "heretic, papist, and liberal" and tries to prevent me from being allowed to express my views in church, all because I happen to believe the earth is billions of years old, I'd say that's bullying and a power play in the same mold as the church leader looking into member finances or giving. History is replete with examples of disagreements over Bible interpretation, and it will always be so, but some use intolerance as a stick with which to beat others. Whether it's about giving or something else is almost immaterial, because it's really about controlling others. How would the OP have responded if the church leader had, instead, asked whether, based on their giving, the church could financially help them in any way? That's demonstrating humility and love, and it would allow them to discuss giving in a completely different light. As I wrote, I don't agree with tithing a fixed percentage, but I would never criticize anyone who does. For me, the important point is that all we have and are belongs to the Lord, not just a certain percentage - and I think we agree on that. Whether we give 10% throughout life, or 0% when poor and 80% when comfortable, is a personal choice.
Yes, it is. And I've also heard you very arrogantly say that any scientist who believes in creation isn't a "real" scientist. Not much of a difference, is there? Scientists must follow YOUR standards to even be considered.
Touche! But that's because it's a scientific conclusion. Intelligent Design, as a hypothesis, has been disproved. That's simply a scientific fact. I do get carried away in making that point sometimes, because it's frustrating to hear scientists written off as heretics and theologians acting as if they are experts in science. Sorry for letting "passion" get the better of me sometimes. I'm not meaning to exert "control" of any sort.
As we've discussed before "Keeping to SCRIPTURE" can mean different things to different people. When you start making your own linear thinking about biblical interpretation a requirement of church membership...you are assuming the role of God...instead of allowing/leading people to come to know God. Pastors are NOT God. We're not God. None of us are. No one person has a perfect interpretation of scripture. No one person has the right to sit in judgement of another's interpretation of scripture. To nitpick and exclude/judge people because their linear thinking doesn't line up with your own linear thinking....is missing the whole message of Christ.
No, it has NOT been disproved. Only in the minds of SOME scientists, or perhaps better said, only in the minds of those scientists YOU consider "real".
Perfect example....Jackie and Steve have different ideas about the origins of man. I'm sure both of these folks have read scripture, thought about it, prayed about it, researched it...and come to two very different conclusions based on their life experiences and the gifts of reason God has blessed them BOTH with. Does either person have the right to decide that they are absolutely right...and make their belief a requirement of attending God's house? NO. That is not serving God. That is assuming the role of God.
And that's the point! It took the current director of our National Institutes for Health, and former head of the Human Genome Project, THREE YEARS to find a church that would accept him. That is a problem! Whether about giving or anything else, we should not be applying these litmus tests. If it's so difficult for believers to be accepted in today's churches, what about the unsaved?
"If it's so difficult for believers to be accepted in today's churches, what about the unsaved?" That is a really good, and very serious question. It is, overwhelmingly, something we should be asking ourselves.
If I ever become a minister (something I have at times given a great deal of thought to), my church would welcome both Steve's and Jackie's beliefs. And Maybe's kids would ALWAYS be welcome at VBS, regardless of donation status. With so many valuable perspectives and ideas, our church would be very approachable and welcoming, and inside a framework of respect...could generate a lot of interesting discussions! We might actually learn something from each other as we observe the divinity inside each of us in fellowship...in support of our own individual spiritual journeys. Each of us has a right to nurture our relationship with Jesus in a way that feels truthful and sincere in our hearts. It's ok that God has made each path as unique as He has made each of us. The real trick...is that framework of mutual respect and consideration when ideas seem contradictory. People do love to argue. They are prideful and human...and love to think they're right! (I'm no exception...lol) People also love to use scripture as "evidence" that they are right...when in reality, scripture can be bent to any shape imaginable, to fit any perspective imaginable. (and has been used this way through out history!) Ultimately, our relationships with Christ and scripture are very personal. There has to be room for honoring that relationship, and there has to be room for each person's personal truth. We have to stop being afraid of each other, and learn to embrace our commonality and tolerate our differences. One thing is certain....my church would spend a lot more money and resources serving families and the community, and less on making our church look like a sterile yuppie conference center. We'd have a lot of family-centric fun. We'd study scripture with various perspectives represented. We'd expect the worst from the world, but focus on hope, instead. We'd raise strong smart kids who boldly love without judgment, who have an ethic of service and giving with an open hand. And we'd follow Jesus's example of taking the message of love and redemption to even the bleakest corners of the community. You never know....I might be that crazy.
Until Steve starts his own congregation, I will not have a perfect church as an option. LOL I agree that politics should be left out of the church. In the mean time I hope to find believers who have mostly similar beliefs to me. If that is a litmus test so be it. I would not want a bunch of posers who believed entirely different things pretending when there are other churches that fit them better where they would be in fellowship with the members. In the church of the OP, do they scarf up all of the communion before the poor people get their? Do they ask you to sit on the floor?
Ok guys, "Maybe" asked for suggestions for materials to use for religious/biblical education at home, not this theological debate! Why not start a new thread for your debate instead of hijacking hers? This is not helping her in any way!
Glad you've seen the light. :lol::twisted: Now this is where I really do differ. If you look at the disciples, Thomas (the thinker) had to live alongside Peter (who spoke before putting his brain in gear); Simon the Zealot (namely, freedom fighter against the Romans) had to share meals with Matthew (hated tax collector for the Romans). Jesus' cousins (James and John) had to follow him alongside total strangers. They were a motley crew - and I think that's how the church should be. Our church used to have a real mixture of people, skin colors, cultures, and so on. Over time, we've become the typical white church, which I find sad. When we do get visitors, we seem to look on some of them with suspicion instead of making them feel welcome. We sit the same seats every week and chat with the same familiar friends. This past weekend, I visited my son in Raleigh. At a church service, I saw only hundreds of well-dressed white people. I'm not sure why - maybe it's personal comfort level - but this seems to be a real trend: the hyphenated church (see my signature). Instead, I want to be challenged. I need to understand why others think very differently. I need to learn tolerance and respect for those differences. Where would be the growth if we all look alike, think alike, vote alike, and act alike? The family of God, surely, should be multi-colored - both literally and in terms of opinions and interpretations. Stepping out of our comfort zone is part of letting go, denying ourselves, and following Christ.
In fairness, we have suggested ideas for materials. Rightly or wrongly, I interpreted the thread also as a plea for support - which I would hope the discussion might bring.
"If you look at the disciples, Thomas (the thinker) had to live alongside Peter (who spoke before putting his brain in gear); Simon the Zealot (namely, freedom fighter against the Romans) had to share meals with Matthew (hated tax collector for the Romans). Jesus' cousins (James and John) had to follow him alongside total strangers. They were a motley crew - and I think that's how the church should be." Astute observation, Steve.
This is why I like the Southern Baptists - you can believe pretty much anything you want and as long as you don't try to conform everyone else to your way of thinking, you can belong and be in fellowship. In my own specific congregation, we used to be a typical white stuffed-shirt congregation, but thank God (literally) we have whites, blacks, and tribal people on our rolls, some of whom are a bit better off and come to church in suit and tie, and others maybe a little less comfortable who come in jeans and tees or even overalls. Our own pastor is in suit and tie on Sunday, but both he and his wife may be in colors and leathers on their Harley on any given Saturday, keeping company with some others of the congregation, or with Faith Riders at Daytona. In our parking lot on Sunday, there are big shiny Lincolns alongside work trucks whose main color is Bondo. Many hold advanced degrees, and many others never went to college, and I'm sure some never finished high school. No one prays in tongues at church, but I know some do at home while others don't believe it's a modern-day gift. But I know that our pastor avoids knowing what each one puts in the offering plate - the counters know how much but not who -- only our treasurer knows, and she's not talking. And we don't charge for VBS nor Sunday School. Ever.
Sadly, not in many of the churches around here. We used to be, but not now. I'm not sure why - other than the silent pressure to conform and a preference to be with people who are the same as us.. As I look around, I get the distinct impression we're becoming a social club. I've spoken out about it recently - inviting people to sit with those they don't know - but nothing has changed. My wife and daughter thought seriously about leaving, but I won't do that. It's not right to walk away from potential problems. We really need something to shake us up!
Until the church is willing to take a stand on right and wrong, it will never be anything more than a social club. Two things are needed for salvation...repentance and grace. Social churches are great for grace, but don't expect repentance. Legalistic churches, are big on repentance, but forget about grace.
