The devil is the one that makes us sin, not God! He had to allow for freedom of choice, which included sinning. He wanted people to choose him out of choice, not out of fear that God would zap them if they didn't choose His way! Since He had to allow for choice, He also made a way of escape. The devil chose sin. Adam and Eve chose to sin. We all choose sin. But Jesus died on the cross to cover those sins! And now we still have freedom of choice. He may nudge you with hearing all He has in store for you if you follow Him, but He will NEVER force you or anyone to follow Him! We should never look at others to decide whether to follow God or not. It's true, many do not live what they say, and I've been one of those that doesn't, sad to say! But the way another lives should never be an excuse for not believing in God. We can easily get past those stumbling blocks if we look to Jesus instead! We are all sinners, so if we look at others, we will always be disappointed! Even the best Christian makes mistakes now and then! Just look to God, let HIM guide you! If you study all the way through the Bible looking at every text on each subject you have concerns about, and understanding the culture etc., you will find that what may seem at first like contradictions, really are beautiful parts of a whole! But you have to search and be willing to lay aside prejudices to find the truth! Do you have specific contradictions that bother you? I'm not sure what you mean, either, about God letting good people fill their role, then damning them. I don't see that, can you explain that a little more?
Patty, that is a great way to explain sin. God does not make us sin! The Word tells us that God always provides a way for us not to sin. We are dead to sin when we get saved. We sin because of our own selfish desire. Christians are not perfect moral beings. If we were, we would not have needed a savior. Should Christians exhibit more characteristics of Jesus? Yes, we should. However, keep in mind that not everyone who claims Christianity is a Christian. Some say they are Christians because they go to church or because they were born in a church going home. I do agree that Christians do not always uphold their beliefs. However, many of us, although imperfect, do show a true love for Christ and others. There are NO contridictions in the bible. The Bible is not to be taken from start to finish as written. If one does not understand dispensations of the bible then, yes, it seems to contridict. When you read the bible you need to ask yourself, to whom was it written? Who is wrote it? The bible is layered with prophecy, history, practical applications and pictures. The Word tells us that a natural man understandeth not things of the spirit. The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the Bible. I promise you that if you find any contridiction it will be based on two verses coming from different dispensations or church age. For example, Peter wrote to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles, Hebrews is for tribulations Jews, Romans is for doctrine of the church age, Matthew may be in the NT but it was written by a Jew for the Jews. If you are interested in what God has for you right now than read the book of John. Every book of the NT pictures and fulfills prophecy of the OT. The story of Abraham going to sacrifice Issac is a picture of Jesus dying on the cross. The Bible is a living spiritual book and must be understood within that context.
Sorry I was sucked into WoW for a few days First, if God made us knowing ahead of time we'd not care about him and just go our own way, then made us anyway, how is that any better than making us and forcing us to sin? How is it any different? It's not, it's the same exact thing, he makes us knowing our future, good or bad he does it anyway. And placing us on earth and expecting us to find him, even if we had a choice, that sounds like a pretty slim chance. We're pretty much spiritually blind while we're down here, we can't say one religion is right over the other unless we've had one drilled into us or we choose to follow one for personal reasons. All we have to go on is logic and you can't really prove God, much like you can't truly disprove him. Second, the biggest contradiction that comes to mind is the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. When Lot's house was being surrounded by the people of Sodom ho offered his daughters to the mob in exchange for the angels. Why would he do such a thing for protection when he had two heavenly bodies in his house? Also, although it's said that was a custom of the time, it seems like that is one of the evil things God was destroying the cities for, but that goes unclarified. Lastly, when his daugers decide to get their father drunk and rape him, where were the consequences? If all these things are okay by God, what could Sodom and Gomorrah have possibly done to make them so much worse? I can't see how anyone could read that and claim it makes sense and isn't contradicting. There's also adding the numerous times the bible was translated from language to language, the extra books some people claim to be part of it, and unreliability of eyewitness reports that make me feel it's more of a reference than a guide to life.
God made us to have freewill. We can choose to follow or not to follow. That is a much better choice than having none at all. Freewill also indicates that God knows all of the endings and alternate endings in our lives...yet we still can make the choice. There is always time. If you choose life A...he knows the consequences...if you choose life B...He knows the consequences. Yet, it is up to you to choose A or B. The bible tells us that everyone will hear the Word of God before leaving this earth. Here in America, there are plenty of opportunities. There are churches, Christian bookstores, Christian radio shows and tv channels. In other countries there are missionaries. There have even been documented accounts of those who were not directly touched by any of these yet Jesus touched them and they were saved. As far as what religion to choose....that is confusing. However, it is only confusing because I feel it was a tool of the devil to do so. What is better? I can clearly tell you what is better....a Bible believing New Testament church. A church that preaches from the Word not from any other source. What denomination is that? Well, that I cannot say. That is not what is important. What is important is that the doctrine is based on the New Testament and established on the blood of Christ. If the church lines up with what the bible says about how churches should be and lines up with the word...there's your church. If you are interested in what the bible says about what a church should be I will be happy to give you the verses. When the angels came to Lot's house, Lot was unaware of who they were. THe angels came in the form of common men and did reveal themselves until they protected Lot and his daughters from the mob. The custom of the time was not to give your daughters to a sex hungered mob. Nor is the custom spoken of one that allowed you to offer guests or anyone up for sexual purposes. The men came to Lot's door to have sex with the two men that entered his house. THat is part of what the city was being destroyed for. So, I am a bit confused on what you meant. The custom was one of hospitality. Once someone entered your house they were your responsibility and you were to treat them as if they were kings in your own home. That was Jewish custom and not one that was directly related to a belief in God. Keep in mind, the bible gives details of lives of everyday normal people we make mistakes and are misguided. The glory of God is revealed when he uses these weak vessels for victory. The daughters were under the impression that they were literally the last three people on earth. In an attempt to "perserve" their father's seed, they made this decision. Also, keep in mind this was a time in biblical history before the law. I could be wrong...someone help me....I don't think incest was all that unusual during these times....though NOT condoned. These daughters obviously lacked faith in God. This was a time when God was seemingly forgotten by His people...all but Abraham. Abraham asked for mercy for Lot and his family and that mercy was granted. So, this certainly does not speak to Lot or his daughters unquestionable faith as much as the love Abraham and God had for them. Remember, these were real people making sometimes real bad decisions. Thank God for that! Where would I be if He only loved the perfect ones! Also, you asked about consequences for the action the daughters took. The chapter on this ends with the action that took place and to say that each daughter conceived. The consequences were quite far reaching! The first-born daughter gave birth to a son that became the father of Moab...even unto this day. The younger daughter gave birth to a son who became the father of the children of Ammon....unto this day. These were NOT blessed families. In fact, the phrase "unto this day" is quite significant because it shows this action is as far reaching as today. As Moab and Ben-ammi are areas today...Syria...oh need help again...yet these are areas of unrest. So, yes there are consequences. We can learn from this that we are not to act out of fear as the daughters did and justify a sin. We can also learn that our sin may have long term consequences that we could not predict. You have brought up a very good point. This is a point I have seen many struggle with. It has never been a struggle of mine, however. I always had faith enough to know that God was big enough to overcome translations. As I grew and read the Word, I read where it is promised in the Bible that God's Word would be preserved. If God was able to create the world from nothing, I think he can manage to perserve the most important thing...His Word! :wink: I also am in the minority, I am sure because I believe that the KJV is the only translation that contains the true Word of God. One God, One Jesus, One Word....afterall Jesus was the Word wrapped in flesh. I do not want to debate this point, as I know one can get saved reading any bible. I got saved reading the NIV. The KJV is the only bible that fulfills the promise in Psalms about the Word. It is also...just a sidenote....the only bible that is not copyrighted or owned by anyone! But, I am not going into this topic as it is very time consuming and may not result in glorifying God as much as causing discord. However, I just wanted to let you know that there are some who believe this way. And to clarify, I do NOT in any way shape or form think less of anyone who believes or is convicted differently. We all in this world together to glorify the Lord! I sure hope, Euphemism, that this answers some of your questions. I hope you can see that understanding the Bible takes more than just a reading or watching a show on the history channel. When one reads the bible one must always ask: To Whom was it written? When was it written? What was going on in history at this time? I think you brought up valid points. I am so happy you did.
“When Lot's house was being surrounded by the people of Sodom ho offered his daughters to the mob in exchange for the angels. Why would he do such a thing for protection when he had two heavenly bodies in his house? Also, although it's said that was a custom of the time, it seems like that is one of the evil things God was destroying the cities for, but that goes unclarified. ” As far as it being the custom of the times, I have never heard or read of this although I have heard that it was custom to treat your guest with great honor. If you have any sources regarding this issue, please let me know so I can read up on it. I am not saying it isn’t true, only I haven’t heard of this so any references regarding this would be appreciated. Thanks. As to Genesis 19, where this story is found, the angels were never handed over to the crowd, neither were Lot’s daughters. God’s power was revealed through the protection of the angels and the crowd was struck blind. I do not know Lots mind. I presume he offered his daughters because he wanted to protect his guests. Was it a proper action? I am going to give my opinion; no. You have to remember that Lot is human and you cannot compare the imperfect thoughts and actions of a mortal being with the perfect mind of an infallible God. They do not compare. Genesis 19:4-11 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." 9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. 10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. You will also find, as I am sure you already know, that Lot and his family were delivered from the destruction and judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah not simply because of Lot but because God remembered Abraham. God is a good God and a God of promises. Genesis 19:29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived. “Lastly, when his daughters decide to get their father drunk and rape him, where were the consequences?” You are assuming there are no consequences. The Bible does not give an everyday account of peoples lives nor do we know what judgment the Lord has or had for them if there are any. Again we do not know the mind of the Lord but I am going to jump the gun and say that it may not have been completely alright otherwise the daughters wouldn't have gotten their father drunk, so he wouldn't remember. You will remember the oldest daughter named her son Moab. Moab was the father of the Moabites. The younger daughter named her son Ben-Ammi and he became the father of the Ammonites. Genesis 19:36-38 36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [a] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today. The Ammonites and the Moabites were not blessed people. It is a lot of reading but I would suggest you read Genesis 19:36 all the through Zephaniah 2:8-10. It is my opinion that Zephaniah sums up the lives of these people. 8 "I have heard the insults of Moab and the taunts of the Ammonites, who insulted my people and made threats against their land. 9 Therefore, as surely as I live," declares the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, "surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land." 10 This is what they will get in return for their pride, for insulting and mocking the people of the LORD Almighty.
I took this from the Billy Graham website. It is a question somebody sent in. Q: I'm troubled by Old Testament stories about God destroying or ordering the destruction of whole cities. Isn't God a God of love? A: Many struggle with the Old Testament accounts of the wholesale destruction of some nations and cities by God. God destroyed the whole world civilization of Noah's day by a flood (Genesis 6:13) and whole cities by fire, such as Sodom (Genesis 19). In other cases, He ordered the destruction of Canaanite cities by the armies of Israel (Deuteronomy 7:1-2). It is important to remember that, while God is a God of love, He is also a holy God, separate from sinners and perfect in righteousness, justice, and purity. The powerful seraphim are pictured as flying and calling, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty" (Isaiah 6:3). Judgment against rebellious and indifferent sinners is inevitable, apart from repentance, "for the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23a). God had endured the idolatry, child sacrifice, and moral corruption of the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan for centuries. When He gave the land to Israel and ordered the destruction of the Canaanites it was both judgment on a people hardened against God and protection for Israel lest they be drawn into the corrupt life of the land's inhabitants. Our difficulty with these acts of judgment is closely associated with our failure to comprehend the purity of God and the sinfulness of mankind, including ourselves. According to the Bible, we all deserve not only physical death but eternal punishment—apart from the death of Jesus as our substitute. Our only hope for escaping the wrath of God is through repentance from sin and by faith in Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and Lord. In the words of Jesus, "Unless you repent, you too will all perish" (Luke 13:5)—stern words from a God who is patient with our failings. "[The Lord] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9). Many people decide that the seemingly senseless acts of God's judgment are a valid reason to reject Him. But this is a serious error. Because God is just, He cannot excuse sin or act somehow as if it did not exist. But because God is also loving, He does not want us to have to endure the punishment we deserve for our sins. We do ourselves no good by thinking we have a greater sense of justice than God Himself. We must surrender to this truth: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). You cannot save yourself from God's judgment—but Christ can, and He will as you commit your life to Him by faith.
The first mention of unlawful sexual relations that I can find is in Leviticus 18:1-30. Leviticus 18:1-30 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. 7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. 8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father. 9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. 10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you. 11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister. 12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative. 13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative. 14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. 15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her. 16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother. 17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. 18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. 19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. 20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. 21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. 24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
That is another thing, the total annihilation of the various cities the jews encountered. I can understand the adults, but slaying every child too? That doesn't seem right, I mean what could they have done to deserve that? I mean if God judges each individual by their own lives and what they have done, it hardly seems fair, good, or right to do it to someone who hasn't even had a chance to learn what good is. Some people also don't understand just how shaky the reports in there could be. Take the miricles of Jesus, at first glance, they seem impossible to disprove. There were many thousands of eye witness reports which give good description. Now lets look at U.F.O.s, they have millions of eye witnesses worldwide, people of all walks of life and experiences, and just as much documented evidence such as photographs, movies, strange injuries, and audio recordings. They however, are widely considered science fiction despite having physical evidence. Jesus's miricles had no physical evidence other than a book made to chronicle what people saw, and a very small percentage of the reports from people with limited knowledge as to what they might be seeing. I thought about that for a while and it really put things in perspective.
I only have a moment but I want to respond. Please read what Patty posted from Billy Grahm, I think that may answer your questions about the Jews destroying lands. If it doesn't....please let us know. I can see how those stories throw you off. They are questions that even Christians ask. Do you believe that Abraham Lincoln existed? What about Alexander the Great? There is as much if not more physical evidence and eyewitness accounts to prove the bible as there is to prove these and other historical figures. I will look to see if I still have my book on some evidence for you. As far as UFOs are concerned, there isn't much I can comment on that. I have not really studied it or put too much thought into it, I must admit. Anything I say would be sheer speculation, so it would be largely useless. I pray you are asking with a sincere heart for finding truth. If you are, the Lord will honor that. Did you find what Patty and I posted on your previous questions helpful or more confusing? Just curious.
Oh I just wanted to add real quick....you mentioned that God judges us by our individual lives or that someone may not deserve God's judgement. I can understand your questioning this if you see it from that perspective. God does not judge us by our individual lives. We have imputed sin from Adam which requires imputed repentence. Although imputed sin may at first glance seem "unfair", think about imputed repentence. We are at a pray forgiven by the sacrifice of one man...Jesus Christ. Sin was transferred to him, so forgiveness could be transferred to us. I don't know about you but I think that is a good deal. lol. So, anyway, due to the imputed sin, and that the Word tells us that we all fall short, than none are innocent. Also, God does not judge us by our individual lives, thank you Lord for that! Once we accept the blood of Christ, we are completely forgiven. He loved us so much that he overlooks ALL sin if we choose him. We do NOT earn our ticket to Heaven...it is a free gift. I hope that makes sense. As I don't have much time...if that didn't make sense, please feel free to ask.
It makes sense, however that's not the only answer I've been given throughout my life. My parents say it's because they would have grown up evil, my youth pastor couldn't justify it, and myself, I'm not entirely sure there's a god to begin with but if there was I'd hope he'd be a little less...sadistic. I really didn't come here looking for the truth since I've been over this material countless times, I've more or less just been trying to explain where I'm coming from, why I left christianity, and why I think there might be some other answer.
Are you referring to other cities or Sodom and Gomorrah? If you hop back to Genesis 18:16-33, you will read about Abraham who pleads for Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 18:16-33 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him." 20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [a] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [c] of all the earth do right?" 26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?" "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it." 29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it." 30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?" He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." 31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?" He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it." 32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it." 33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. I do not remember reading anything regarding any number of children in Sodom and Gomorrah, however I do remember reading that God was willing to spare the land for a few of the righteous. He promised he wouldn't destroy the righteous with the wicked, if there were any left. Lot and his family were the only ones left. Patty
Than I apologize if it seemed as though I was trying to debate you. I was thinking that you were asking questions because you were seeking. I do apologize...I know it can be nerve racking if you feel attacked or feel like someone it not letting something go. Although I disagree with you, I can see the validity to the things that make you have questions. I hope it did not appear that I was trying to debate or argue with you. I hope you find the truth behind the answers you seek. If you do have a question or want another perspective, I would be happy to converse more on here with you. Otherwise, I don't want to risk offending you by continuing on. I sometimes have a rather "to the point" kinda way of speaking, so I sometimes come across harshly and /or opininated. lol.
This type of conversation is so important, because the ramifications of our decisions are eternal. Each of the questions & answers here is well thought through. I 'd like to respond to the word "sadistic," though, because it cannot be applied to the Lord. The Word tells us that "God is love." He, in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, paid the penalty for all the sins of the world on the Cross. That includes mine. That's love! So it's not a person's sin, per se, but it's their refusing to accept such a great gift which keeps people, by their own choice, separated from God. Forever.
I apologize too. I never want to appear as though I am shoving the word down somebody's throat. I was trying to share what I believe and why since you posted why you didn't agree with the original post. So again, I am sorry! Although, I do need to be honest and want to let you know that I will continue to post on this thread and I am not trying to teach you anything as much as discuss the Lord with my sisters and with those who choose to post on this thread. Eventually it will die down but I am enjoying this thread while it lasts. Besides, I really enjoy bragging about my God.:angel: Patty
Me, too! And I don't mind discussing issues of faith with those who hold other opinions. In a forum like this, it may seem as if we are "debating" people, but really, to me, I'm examining ideas. In fact, other views often help me clarify my own positions.
I see the children dying in Sodom and Gomorrah as God's PROTECTION from further evil they would have encountered. God could save them, don't you think? Would we rather grow up with adults and others raping us almost daily and maybe being sacrificed on the altar of some God, or would you rather fall asleep (die) and be resurrected when Jesus comes? I had thought it was horrible that seemingly innocent children died at the hand of God. But I know what many of them were going through, or would soon go through, and now think what I wrote above. Does that sound plausible anyone?
I have a question that I would love to hear anyones opinion on. It is something that I seek an answer to, but realize that sometimes there are no answers. I will give an example as I am not sure how to start. My sil is pregnant. She says she is beginning to have morning sickness but is seeking out scripture to stand on against being sick. She said she found several but her faith must not be strong enough because she is still sick. He dh made reference to the scripture that says something about "speaking as if it were so" and because of that he will never have heartburn. I guess what I struggle understanding is this...Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins, "By His stripes we are healed". I take this to mean in our eternal life with Christ. But my in-laws believe it to be now in the present time. That Jesus died that we would not have to suffer. What is your ideas on this? I am not at all trying to get a debate started...but would love to hear the different perspectives on this. Again, this may be one of those questions that we will not know the answer to until we get to heaven! Sorry for going of the previous subject!!
