I am curious your opinions on this, but I DON'T want to start an argument! It's one of those topics that I know there will be disagreement on, but I'm hoping it will be done respectfully as an exchange of ideas. Anyway, I went to the CHEO conference yesterday. I went to one workshop about "Training Your Daughters to be Keepers of the Home". Basically, she doesn't believe that daughters should necessarily go to college, that our primary job (outside of discipling them to be followers of Christ) is to train them up to be wives and mothers. How many of us that are SAHM's are actually using our degree? Why is it needed to be a wife and mother? Should a daughter go directly from a father's headship to that of a husband? Becky, I KNOW you'll have an opinion on this . Am curious what y'all think.
Jackie, what I have to say is this- you must have never been wronged by a male your entire life or you were just trained to put up and shut up. Consider yourself charmed. Actually, I have heard of this workshop. I think a girl should be taught to be self sufficient from birth. Suppose she does choose to stay home. What will she do if the husband walks out or passes away? She's got to have some skills to seek employment. I'm sorry I wasted 12 years in a factory. In my family the women left school to get married :roll: and no one did more to better themselves. Hindsight is 20/20, they say.
I'll make this entry brief cuz I am TIRED..... I have a good friend with 4 daughters and no sons. It hit her and her husband one day that they had such a responsibility to train up their daughters to be BOTH self-sufficient--after all, nobody should go into life assuming that the Lord has marriage in His plan for them--AND to be the wife and mothers that they MAY become. In other words, to encourage talent and the use thereof (even the virtuous Proverb 31 woman made girdles, had a store, bought and sold land, tended a vineyard, etc.) but at the same time show them that if they become a wife and mother that that job will supersede everything else. I quit college because I knew that the profession I had chosen would not allow me to be at home with my future family ( I knew that was what was planned for me) on my own terms. There are times I wish I had a degree, but my current job lets me pick the hours I want, and it is combining the fields I want to be in (I work in a horse/pet/wildlife store so I am the "local animal health specialist" AND I get to make all of their advertising flyers etc. to help me fulfil my art interests). I think that my situation is an absolute blessing for my willingness to sacrifice the things that I desired to have in favor of fulfilling my responsibilities as the keeper of my home. I get to have the best of both worlds!
Brooke, if you wanted to, don't they have courses to take through the mail-Thompson Direct is one of them- to do more in the veterinary field? I have talked to stay at home mom real estate agents who took calls at home during the day then showed properties at night after the husband came home.
I may be way out in the left field here and maybe I don't even qualify as someone who should be answering because I'm not a SAHM. It would be my own opinion/preference to be home far more often with our boys, but in this day and age (and given that hubby is having a really hard time getting work because of his deficits from the accident) we can't live off of one income alone. Nursing had been a life long dream of mine and while I have accomplished that goal, I would so much love to be home. I think that as Mom's (sorry I don't have any girls so this is a tough one to answer) we need to train all of children regardless of their sex to be mature, respectful, productive members of society - that is a command we have been given. That to me wouldn't mean for a girl to be trained (to be like me) to kick about every situation that may arise within a marriage. In my little dream world, a husband and a wife would disagree on things but could find that happy medium where both individuals make comprimes to meet in the middle but not to lower their standards in doing so. There are lots of successful homes where Mom and Dad are both working - I really think it's harder to make it successful, but it is possible. And at the same time, I have the utmost respect for SAHM - it's actually a harder job than working in the outside world - the pay check comes in the form of kisses and hugs (who could beat that) and you're with you children 24/7 - which can be taxing... You guys are wonderful for being able to do so and are to be commended for it. Ever notice there's more fuss over Mother's day than for Father's day - someone recognizes our endless work with our families :wink: Ok, I've rambled - sorry. Brenda
daughter I have a daughter and I plan to support her in whatever she decides. I got married at 18 straight out of high school. My husband, now of almost 19 years, and I both went to a Tech college and he got a 2 year degree plus a certificate in another field. I got a certificate in secretarial science and got a job in that field. After having our twin boys 8 years ago I stopped working. I worked part time up until that point and was a mom too. Scott kept Ansley until I got home from work and then he worked 2nd shift. I think Ansley needs to be encouraged to do whatever she so desires as long as it is in God's will. So I plan to train to go on to college, marriage or whatever God holds for her and I do plan to teach her how to cook, clean, etc. My boys will learn also.
It is true that a large part of the problem with men is what thjey were raised to think. Unfortunately, my spouse was raised by a grandma and great grandma. He grew up thinking all women were like this! My parents might not have agreed on everything, but there was never clear titles of breadwinner and subservient, either. And get this- my dad was the stay at home after his heart attack. Never once, from the day quit working until the day he passed away when I was 8, never once did my mom behave like the house and I were his job because he was home. They were equals. On Saturdays she did whatever he didn't get to during the week, then we all spent saturday night together. Kevin was raised mostly by his grandma and I see some of the same attitudes his dad has.... which I want to obliterate with a lightsaber!!!!
Blah Blah Blah! That's rubish for someone to think that they should have their future planned out for them based on their se*. I went to college and would not be where I am today without my education. I believe that it is the individuals choice whether they want to go to college or not. My brother decided not to go to college and instead took up a trade and now makes darn good money working on CNC machines. I went to college and make less than he does. My parents stood by me and my brother with whatever we decided we wanted to do. They weren't too happy about me wanting to go to New York after I got accepted to a performing arts school (which I decided against), but they told me they would stand by whatever I chose. I figured out what God wanted for me, and God led me to the education field at a state university. And I DO use my degree! My husband on the other hand has a 4 year degree in marketing and advertising and works at a bank. He does not use his degree and I do (hum?). I think that some people take the "husband is head of household" to the extreme because they don't allow themselves to study the Bible in it's full entirty (did I spell that right?). They only read the words they want to read and that is that. If the head of household was based on income, I would win. If it was based on se*, than my husband would obviously win. For us, it's an equal partnership no matter if one of us is working or both of us. No decision is made without the consulation of the other. People need to wake up and face reality!!! If someone chose to stay home because that is what they want to do, than that is great. But I would NEVER, and I mean NEVER, take my daugthers (if I had one) independance away because she is female. It's the year 2005, and every child needs to be taught independance in order for sheer survival. If they are not taught that than I feel really sad for those children when they are old enough to move out on their own.
People all interpret the Bible differently, too Jen. Some take it very literally. Some Old Testament things just don't work out today, though. Somewhere it says women shouldn't braid their hair. I know some very devout ladies who do braid their hair. Some things can be applied today, some can't, but some people live by it all, all the time. Tithing is in the Old Testament and that's something I live by. Girls are going to do what they see being modeled, really.
Very true and good point Beck! To be an example is the best way we can mold our children. Because people interpret the Bible so differently that is why people need to dig deeper into the scripture instead of taking everything too literally. God knows our world today and I know that if I braid my hair I am not going to the hot place below.
I think if our daughters don't wish to go on to further education then we should most certainly support them in that decision. I think if they do wish to, we should support that too. I DESPISE the fact that my mother in law harps on how i have no education should I ever be left with my children. First of all she has implied that her son might walk out on me and we (he and I) are both committed to making this work and I don't think it's her place to suggest otherwise. Second of all, it's my problem, not hers. I have no education that some think is so important. I have, however, brought in good money at times doing things such as child care and taking care of handicapped adults. If I had needed to support my family I could have. Now, not so much due to lack of ability to multi task, to get through a day without extra sleep, etc, thanks to the MS, but.. I firmly believe that so long as I did my part God would do the rest. We aren't going to seperate, and should my husband be taken to heaven while I still have children to support he has a healthy live insurance that would take care of us. I am indeed training my daughter to be a keeper at home. That doesn't mean she won't get further education if she needs it, nor does it mean she will decide to never work, but it does mean that she will know how to keep a home. After all, she IS going to have one, married, working, a mother, or not! Shouldn't she know how to keep it? I didn't.... and it took me years to learn. I intend to make sure all of my children, boys included, know how to keep a home far better than I did. They already do!
Lorna, I forget exactly where it is, but it's the one about how women should look unlike men and be unadorned. I called a Christian school for Jeannie not long ago and they based their dress code on that verse. Girls had to have long hair, wear dresses everyday even at recess, clothing was to be plain and unadorned so as to not draw attention to themselves. Dresses had to be below the knee. It was all taken from that verse.
This could get interesting...... There are verses which were addressing a specific situation for the culture--like the braiding here..... 1Ti 2:9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; {broided: or, plaited} Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. (KJV) Kinda like the "consider the lillies" passage about what matters and what doesn't. We aren't to be more concerned with what we wear than what we are assembling ourselves together for. About the husband and wives.... Eph 5:21 ¶ Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. (KJV) Sorry about that lengthy passage....I just couldn't leave any of that out! Let me tell ya, when we behave as we are instructed to in marriage there is just nothing better on the face of this earth! We are to mirror our relationship with Christ (in the wife) and Christ's relationship with us (in the husband). I trust my husband with my life, and as long as he is following Christ, I trust that he will make no decision w/o my best interests in mind. I used to have a SEVERE submission issue until I really understood it. I think it is odd that so many women would look at my situation (or Jackie's and others) and think that we don't have any say in what goes on in our homes. It is quite the contrary. My husband listens to me and acknowledges when I am the authority on a specific topic and he trusts me completely--which is probably more than he should :wink: . I have known him to concede to my desires on an issue to our detriment. What an awesome responsibility he has! He is to love and care for me as Jesus does, all the while knowing that comparitively he can't even come close. I've brought up before this passage: 1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. (KJV) My husband is to treat me with honor, like he would a precious piece of fine china. In this verse "weaker vessel" refers to a delicate piece of pottery straight off the Potter's wheel, a work of the Masters' hands! I can't imagine being held in such esteem in all my life, but that is just what I am to my husband. And if we remember what Jesus said about what it takes to lead like He does, then we would rejoice that our household leaders are to first be our servants. To take the lead is to take the burden of accountability for more than just yourself--sound familiar?????? That is what Jesus did for all of us!!!! Sorry to dwell on that idea, but I really want to drive that home! No more feeling like we are in a battle for control. No more whining about what GOD SAYS for us to do as wives! Wives are not told to be willing to give our lives for our husbands.....we are told to merely respect what he says and not give him any guff. Sounds like we got it easy to me!
That's the one, Brooke. Lorna- that's it. I'm not putting anyone down for what they will tolerate within their marriage. I never did. What I don't care for is how the view on this board is so one sided ALL THE TIME. Since Kathe left I'm the only one who speaks out with a different point of view than everyone else. I'm the only one who owns up to the fact that all is not perfect all the time. I've said it before and I'll say it again- that onesidedness is why there's only a few of us who post regularly. Did anyone notice most of the newcomers haven't been back lately, unless they are posting on threads I'm missing. There are other newcomers, but no one sticks around anymore. So, back to the conference. What does this lady say women should do if the women find themselves without a provider, for whatever reason, if they go right into a marriage? Does she have strategies for if a bad situation( domestic violence, etc.) comes up? I ask this seriously, not trying to be funny. if a non Christian female has fears of going to the police in that situation I can't imagine how a Christian female would handle it.
I've been reading with interest all the comments, but have so far not said anything. To be quite honest, I'm not sure WHERE I stand on this issue, and have honestly been interested in EVERYONE'S opinion. And I haven't read ANYONE saying that they plan on keeping their daughter from higher education, if that was their desire. If there's been any "onesidedness" in this conversation it's been AGAINST keeping daughters at home. And that's OK. Becky, you're right in that I've never been "hurt" by a man. I am blessed with both a father and husband that honors and respects the women in their lives. Submission is SO MUCH EASIER when that's the case. I am not a doormat, but I bow to his authority. My friend says that yes, there's a partnership in their marriage, but at times of disagreement, HE'S the "senior partner". Yes, husbands DO abandon their wives, and yes, it's sometimes the "good" husbands that you would never "expect" to leave. Husbands also die, or become unable to work for one reason or another. Some may consider it "prudent" for their daughters to have higher education "just in case". I sure won't fault anyone who feels that way! We all must do what we feel is God's leading. And I bet most of us have insurance of one kind or another...that's the same idea, isn't it? But is that TRUELY trusting God to provide? I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just asking questions I'm not sure of. Do we HONESTLY believe that God is capable to provide for our "uneducated" daughter if something were to happen to her husband? Or do we put a greater trust in her education? The woman who led the workshop, BTW, had her father walk out when she was nine. Her mother made her VERY independent. She refused to say tthe word "obey" in the wedding vows, and she was making more money than her husband. So she was NOT raised to be a "submissive" wife! How that transformation took place, I'm not sure. She's still not her DH's doormat, nor should she be. There was a time when her husband lost a job (lived in a small town, main business shut down), but they felt she should NOT go back to her corporate training. Nor did they go on welfair. GOD PROVIDED!!! Again, I am questioning where *I* am at in my Christian walk. I DON'T KNOW what is right or wrong in this issue. But, just out of curiousity, can anyone think of examples from the Bible of women working outside the home?
Becky, Boy I agree with you 110 percent it is alot of one sided in here and who you know that is why I don't post alot and when I do I watch what I say. I got slammed so much with private e mails when I spoke up about people living together. I haven't posted much since and have talk to alot of news private who wouldn't post because of the same reason. Some if it I think is people in here in don't want to know the truth or don't want to face the truth. Becky, I read all your post and agree with everything but until now I haven't said a thing since the living together one. Kind of afraid, I have never been slammed so much in all my life in a room. BUT, it's true there are alot of people living together and doing alot of things weather we like it or not. Just like that new TV show coming out in July where they are going to pick there neighbors and if you read about the show they have people of all kinds, gay, living together, people with tatoos and rings all over. One lady who gets to help pick the neighbors said SHE WILL NEVER JUDGE ANYONE AGAIN BY THE WAY THEY LOOK OR WHAT THEY DO. I think we all need to think about that. I am a good women and have a heart too and I am very kind I just had opinion which alot of you didn't like or couldn't face. Everyone is titled to there opinion I don't feel we need to get slammed with private e mails if you don't like something we say. Becky, You keep speaking for all us quiet ones but we all agree with you girl. YOU GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
I'm not afraid of rotten tomatoes being thrown my way.... First, Kris, I am sorry that you even received even one private e-mail slamming you. IMHO this is a public forum and rebuttals ought to be in the open except in rare circumstances where the opposing view truely is speaking to you in love (which I know I had not previously been one to do the correct way). Jackie, I mentioned earlier on this thread about the Proverbs 31 woman who worked in and out of the home, buying and selling land, making products to sell in her shop while burning the midnight oil! Busy, blessed, working mom. Okay, tomato time....... :wink: .....this section of the forum is titled "Christian Issues". Therefore it is my understanding that all things Christian should be able to be discussed unabatedly here. One of my thoughts on this hot button topic of submission is that it is God's Word. I really don't see how it could be interpretted any other way that the way He says it. It might not be popular, or even comfortable at times, to honor our husbands' headship, but that doesn't change the fact that it is what it right. I don't think any of us have said that our homes are perfect. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to deny the fact that God's Word is true. I'm really gonna step out here and take it in the face. Our marriages have the SOLE purpose of being a tool God uses to perfect us, or mold us, into the people He wants us to become in Christ. We are in relationships with our spouse to help us grow in our relationship with Jesus. How will we be able to submit to God's Will, who we can't see with our own eyes, if we can't acknowledge headship to the man we sleep with every night? I don't believe it is possible to TRUELY submit to God without having a spirit of humility with our husbands. Our husbands are told that if they don't treat us with honor it will hinder their prayers, and I'm sure that it hinders ours when we have the wrong attitude as well. That is like telling God, "okay, Lord, I'm with ya on all this other stuff you say, but I'm stopping at this submission thing cuz I don't think you really mean that we need to do that today." Anyone familiar with the Song of Solomon? There is nothing new under the sun. Period. People haven't changed. God hasn't changed. Why do we think we have it so much harder that all of a sudden the rules have changed? Our society is what has changed and has brainwashed dear sisters in Christ to think that things should be different now. This section of the forum is for Christians and as iron sharpens iron, I am gonna tell it like it is. God's instructions work. No if's, and's, or but's about it. If you want to have a right relationship with God, listen to everything He says, not just pick and chose or think it has changed. At the risk of sounding insensitive, stop the whining and the obstinate attitude. My marriage stunk for years and I've endured separation and physical abuse. But I'm here to tell ya that God's plan works and when even one partner starts to do what God's says to do in a marriage, the marriage gets better! Okay. I think that is all I can handle right now. :shock: :shock: I'm pumped up.....maybe I'll go clean! :lol:
