I have a few things to say: #1: It's ok to post what you believe and I give all of you credit for being such firm believers in Christ, but it doesn't mean that you should judge others and throw opinions in their face. God also gives us the gift of humbleness and just by putting "IMHO" before a rant doesn't make the statement humble. There are people's feelings to consider and there are ways of posting opinions and standing by what you believe without hurting others and coming across offensive. #2: Just because someone doesn't live the full submissive life that some of you lead, doesn't mean that their marriage or relationship is any worse or better or different for that fact. God gave everyone different gifts and personalities, and personally, if some gal was married to an idiot husband who made severe wrong choices, than I would want that woman to stand up and say "Hey". My husband is one that isn't any good at putting his foot down when needed. I AM. So because of that, God as chose us to be together and even each other out per say. We are a very happy married couple who live under God's rules and we wouldn't have it any other way. Just because someone lives a different way of life doesn't make them an unbeliever or any less of a Christian. I have met A LOT of people who claim to be the perfect portrait of a Christian family, and then you find out they are no different and no more blessed than the next people. Everyone has their sins, and each sin is equal. Before anyone judges another about their sin, you need to go and fix your own sins first. So because my husband and I lived together for a couple months before we got married do you think we are going to the hot spot? Yes, it is considered a sin, but it is not ANYONE ELSES job to judge, it is God's! If you would like to judge others, even by biblical back-up, you are still judging and that is a sin in itself. #3: No we should not pick and choose which rules to follow, but God knows the world (hello-he created us!) and knows that we sin. Enter Jesus! God forgives us because he knows how "humaly" impossible it is for anyone to live a life that is sinless. The only man to ever walk this Earth without sin is "you know who". We sure can try to do what we can, but there is no possible way to never sin. It's written like that for eternity until the blessed Lord comes to take us all home. Again, take care of your own sins before judging the sins of others. #4: as far as being able to submit to Jesus...I don't need to practice submitting to my husband in order to be able to submit to Jesus. When I die and see Jesus, I know who my Lord and Savior is and know to follow. #5: the section is for Christians, but there are many different Christians. Catholic, Lutheran, Penicostal, Evangelical, etc... Yes, there is only one Bible, but there are many types of Christians. #6: if God didn't want me to work than he wouldn't be leading me right now in my career in such a great way. Doors would be shutting rather than opening tremendously. #7: I am sorry you feel the way you do, Becky. You should be getting supportive advice without feeling slammed and judged. Anyone can say they are a Christian, but that is only half of it. It makes no sense to say you are a Christian and preach the word of the Lord when you berade and judge people in the process. #8: Maybe because my marriage didn't start out rocky or doomed than maybe that's why my theoretical definition of submission is different. My husband and I have always been happy, not that we don't have our issues, but it's not because I am not the fully submissive wife. It goes both ways. I believe there CAN be different outlooks on what submissive may mean, just like every other statement in the Bible. That's why there are so many different denominations. If everybody thought that every passage of the Bible meant the same thing then we wouldn't be so divided by denominations or faith. #9: Last but certainly not least-this may be a forum about Christian views, but I will add again, it is a not a place to judge and attack people about their points. People will be more apt to listening to what you have to say if you word it without sounding hurtful or judgemental. I hope nobody takes what I have said personally, for I did not point my finger at a single person or people. I believe being a Christian is a lot more than just showing or saying you can follow God's commandments. It's always a work in progress.
Guys, I really don't want to let this get into an "I'm right, you're wrong!" fight! That was not my intent! Yes, it IS a submissive issue. And all of us all practice submission to various degrees, though I doubt ANY of us are either at the "In-Your-Face, Not-At-ALL" or the "Little-Miss-Mousy, Blend-Into-The-Wall" extremes. But please don't start pulling punches! So far, I have appreciated everyone's comments and I again state that it appears to be most heavy on the "Let your daughter go to college if she wants" side. Let's not get sidetracked on the submissiveness of wives! (I know...submissivness IS part of it, but..... :? ) Brooke, my impression of the Prov. 31 woman is that while she will buy/sell at the market, that was more of falling into buying what was needed for her family/selling the excess to help provide for the family. So even that falls under "Keeper of the Home". Someone mentioned Lydia; I will have to look more carefully at her!
slammed Oh ok!!! I do think I may have missed something somewhere. I thought the question was if our daughter wanted to go to college or stay at home would we support her. Well that is what I answered anyway. I will support Ansley in what she decides to do. Ok Becky, sorry you feel you get slammed alot. :cry: I hope I haven't said anything to you to make you feel that way. I don't think I have at all. :wink: I do think this is a great group of women. They pray when we need it and talk openly about loads of things. I guess I have missed out on the slamming things. I don't think I fit in with all the ladies here but I do think that I can be friends with all of them. We all come from different areas, families, background and parts of the country. I think we all are very different and lead different lives. I don't school for religious reasons but I don't feel I leave them out either. I don't wear dresses due to the fact that I don't feel that God desires me to do that to be a women. I do feel I dress like a women and keep myself covered where I should. I don't social drink due to the fact that I don't like it and I grew up with a brother (older by 9 years) who has major drinking problems. He leads a very messed up life and does dumb things often to hurt others. I saw this growing up and wanted no part of anything that leads to sawing your couch in half or taking a ball bat and breaking your windshield out of the car. I don't look down on folks who do drink. I just don't want that for my family. I have seen too much trash from him. I do realize as an adult that all drinking isn't like his but he is the person I have seen the most of. I just don't want it and God has helped me keep from that life. I have been to my husband's work parties where people are social drinking and had a great time with them but I didn't drink. I also didn't judge them. I also have people who I know that are gay. One of which I have been very close too and cared for deeply. I just didn't judge them at all. I don't want that life for myself either but I don't seperate myself from them. That goes for living together. I try to be friends with anyone who comes my way. Everyone is different. God made us all that way. I try to pray for people and not judge. Anyway I hope that I haven't said anything to you or anyone else here to make you feel bad. I don't really think anyone intends for that too happen but I think sometimes that folks don't realize and know everyone's backgrounds. I have kept my mouth shut and prayed for loads of situations that I don't agree with and never written a word. Becky I think you make this board interesting but with your personality you will get hard words from some and I think you already know that. Others are very religious and they get slammed for that. We need to just except each other and our differences and love each other. It kinda goes back to the saying What would Jesus do? I do hope this came out the way I hoped it would . Feelings have a hard time being expressed. :lol: Love to all, Lorna
Back the bus up, girls. I don't feel like I get slammed, I feel like the view here is one sided. The only time I ever felt attacked was when all that stuff with Kevin came up. I knew I was doing what was right for myself and him, so it was cool. I read plenty here I don't agree with and I've said that before, but I never comment because the fact that I don't agree doesn't give me the right to speak out against it. Please can we get back to the conference? I don't want Mom to close this thread!!
If it makes you feel better Beck, I agree with you. I may not "submit" to it's full meaning but I feel pretty darn good about my relationship with my husband and God, and you should too.
Don't worry-you can't get rid of me that easily-he he! Just to let you all know, I have a very bold personality at times. You can even ask Becky who has seen countless posts of mine at a to z. I will never intentionally hurt or cast stones, but when I feel that something does need to be said, I will say it, and it usually is lengthy. I try to use the best words possible, but sometimes it doesn't happen, just as with anyone else. It can be hard to read into someones post without actually hearing the words. BUT, one thing I have a hard time dealing with is someone who attacks people for believing something that someone else doesn't. We need to choose our words carefully, or the words will fall on deaf ears.
To answer Jackie's original question, if I had a daughter, I would teach her to be a good homemaker (whether the Lord would have her marry and have children, or whether she remained single, she would need those skills!). But I would also encourage her to go to college. My parents went so far as to encourage me to finish college before getting married! I don't believe it contradicts Scripture for a girl to have an education. If a daughter remained single or were widowed, having a college degree would be a blessing. As far as the submission issue, I take the Bible very literally (but always in context, without which one can come up with some strange ideas!). My husband is the head of our home. Period. This does not mean I am without a voice and without a vote! God has blessed me with a wonderful husband who loves and cherishes me, encourages me to grow and develop, cheers me on when I take on a daunting task, he's my very best friend. I praise the Lord for bringing dh into my life. And we are commited to raising our son to be the man God wants him to be, including (if the Lord wants him to marry) being a great husband. Dh involves me in decisions, listens to my opinions, values my view point, etc. But the final decision is his responsibility. And frankly, I wouldn't want that responsibility! I believe it's a great challenge to raise young men and women in our society today who will love the Lord with all their hearts, minds and souls. So much of our culture is steeped in ideas that are contrary to Scripture. We often don't realize that our own view points have been shaped by our culture. Just some thoughts... Blessings,
I promised myself not to get involved in the submission war, but I was reading something tonight and it kind of shed a whole other light on this issue and so I'm going to (duck) and post it here. This is from the "What's in the Bible for Mother's " (Biblically inept series) I have added the same bold/underscoring that is included in the book. I think I once said a while ago that this is a forum where education is of prime concern to each and everyone of us - if it weren't we wouldn't be here. I don't see the harm in being able to talk through these things. That's how we learn... I wanted to post something earlier, but I walked away from it because I'm tired and didn't want it to come across the wrong way. I don't have any daughter's so I have a somewhat of a problem replying to the original question. As a mom of three wonderful boys, I can reply from that perspective. I have no idea whether God will allow them to marry and have children or whether He has something else planned for them. Whatever the case may be, I am raising them to learn that household chores are not just a 'woman' thing - it's a part of life that they need to learn to do. (Now this is a "me thing") I personally do not want any of the boys growing up, marrying and expecting the wife to do all the house stuff "bare foot and pregnant" expression comes to mind here. I believe that in a marriage, it takes both partners for the marriage to work. Becky, I agree with some of what you're first post in this thread said "...Suppose she does choose to stay at home. What will she do if the husband walks out or passes away? She's got to have some skills to to seek employment" I'm working right now with a couple in which the man made most of the decisions in the marriage (they never came out and told me that, but with interacting with them I can see that". The wife, now facing the death of her husband, is struggling because she's forced to make decisions that she never had to worry about before - that's not to say she wasn't included in them, but he had the final say on them. It is my own opinion that whether a young lady carries on to college or not only matters when it's the Lord's will for her life (same applies to a young man - I'd love to see the boys to carry on to college, but only if it's what God would have them do). What I feel is important are those life skills, the ability to think for oneself, the ability to contrinbute equally to a relationship. I do not mean to step on toes here - I'm exhausted and have probably said far more than I should have, but I'm on a roll. I respect the view points of each of you and find them to be learning moments - it's nice to learn the perspective of other people - and that includes everyone who has contributed here. My own opinion is that we all need to step back from this (myself included) and take some really deep breaths before we continue - the potential for hurt feelings is there - I can see it in some of the posts here. Please don't let this thread drive a wedge in friendships or cause bad feelings. Hugs for everyone, Brenda
Brenda, I think you worded your opinion very well. I can't see how it could offend anyone on either side of the "submission" debate. I do have another question for those of you who are not sure you can answer the original question since you raise only boys. Obviously, you're not going to "pick" a wife for your boys (or at least I assume not ) But, if it were up to you, would you rather a wife for them that held a college education and used it, one that had the education but was planning on staying home, or one that was planning on staying home without the education? Or is that even a fair question?
I agree with you Jackie. Very well put Brenda. I also did not mean to seem so brash. I just feel the need to stand up when someone is being put down, which is what I felt. Maybe I took it the wrong way. It's wonderful for everyone to be able to say their opinions, but it should be done with respect. In answer to your question above Jackie, I think it all depends on the situation of the home. With the world the way it is today, I think it is at least wise for any woman to obtain a degree that could be used, even if she decides to stay home with her children. For example, 3 friends of ours (all male) hold bachelors degrees (one of them holds 3 different bachelors degrees alone). All three of them have been let go of great paying jobs within the last 4 years. Not all at once, but each of their companies down sized and let go the lowest on the totem pole within that time. Even though these men hold degrees and make darn good money, they were sided swiped by unemployement. One couldn't find a job until after a whole year had past. Thank God none of these friends have families to provide for or a wife, but lets say they did. Even if the "wife" had a degree and didn't use it, in that situation, the wife could have at least stepped up to the plate and gone to work for the sake of the family. I'm not saying you can't just go to Wal-mart and get a job, but working on that salary isn't going to get you very far if your income is the only one coming in. If I didn't use my degree, I would still be proud of what I accomplished and would know that if my husband were to pass away I would be able to take care of myself and any children. All I ask for in a future wife for my son is someone who lives their life through Jesus Christ. If she has a degree or not, that's just a piece of paper to me. Granted, with the way the world is today, it's almost like you need a master in anything to get by nowadays because jobs are so competetive. I would be thrilled if he married someone who has the education (just to be on the safe side), but whether or not she uses it is completely up to her (or God actually). But if she didn't, as long as she's not a gold digger, it doesn't make a difference to me. On a similar note. I know many wealthy people who don't have the education and have just taken the right paths to become what they are today. I have fired people with degrees because they were horrible. Some of the best teachers I hired were ones who didn't have their education. Anyone can achieve a degree, it takes a real natural to succeed. Point to ponder.
Life is not perfect all the time, and I have no idea who holds to the idea that theirs is. Unfortunately I'm not that good at pretending. LOL. As for one sided view, I would assume thats because most of us here believe the same way. Sure it looks one sided, but we can't help the fact that we all agree! It's nobodys fault, it' just how it is. Newcomers stick around... what are Jen and I, chopped liver? :wink: It's hard for anyone to leave a violent marraige. It *should* be easier for a christian because they should have support of a good church but unfortunately I've seen it be totally the opposite. You do what you have to do, and education or not, it's going to be hard. In fact, the more educated you are, the harder it is to admit that "you were stupid enough to marry this moron." No, I don't think people in abusive marraiges were stupid, but often that is their take and thats the persepctive I was coming from. It all boils down to letting our children follow what they feel God wants for them. So long as we have taught them what is clearly Biblical for them - the rest is between them and God and I'm not going to force or cajole my child into something. It's never to late to go and learn something new if they change their mind later. Glenda
I'm not Brenda, but for my boys? I want a wife who loves them unconditionally, accepts their leadership, even empowers them to be the leaders they were created to be; mothers their children with all the love imaginable I don't care how educated or uneducated they are. I don't care if they finished Jr High. I just care that they have a heart for God and for my son and any future grandchildren. Thats what matters in eternity so it's what matters to me now. Glenda
Lydia Seller of Purple taken from Acts 16:7-15 taken from this website http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Acts 16:7-15;&version=9;Acts 16:7-15 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. 11Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. The icon that my daughter thinks is cool. These are for Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox (me) doctrines. http://www.comeandseeicons.com/htp02.htm
Do I get to choose an apppropriate wife for each of the boys :lol: :lol: :lol: That could be dangerous for them :lol: Any of the boys could go to college/university come out with a wonderful career and a wife who may also have a wonderful education. Suppose it's the Lord's will that they would go into the missions field - education isn't necessarily going to make a lot of difference here. They could each have a degree and be using it and then decide that it's not what God had planned for them and not use it at all. One of the first Bible studies we did was on rasing children of faith. One of the questions was to look at each of your children and pick out things that you would want them to be (married, wealthy, successful, etc). My answer then and now was for them to be happy with whatever it is that they are doing and to be serving the Lord in some way - that could be for them to be in the wonderful career, to be married or not, to have umteen dozen children to be stay at home parents, in the missions field, etc. I'm happy if they're happy (and more happy if they have children that are being cared for). Eduation isn't the be all that ends all. It's nice to have but I don't think it defines who you are as a person if you don't have one - Dad was 17 when he quit school - in grade 4! He doesn't have an 'education' as far as the school system is concerned, but he has life learned skills (ok, so some of them aren't the greatest :roll: ) and he is a productive member of society. Education isn't what makes a person (although that's all you hear about on television - to be "successful" you have to have this top paying job and the education comes from (wherever)...). Truthfully, I guess I can't really answer the question. What I would want for my children is for them to put their best effort in whatever it is that they do and I would hope and pray that they would marry someone who could do the same. Rambling again - I've gotta get to bed (worked last night and haven't been to bed yet and it's well after 11pm the next day :shock: :shock: ). Brenda
On a side note, Brenda, I like your quote above from the book you were reading. It does shed light and kind of gives different meaning to the word. It proves it CAN be taken in different context. I like your example: wife to husband, husband to wife. It goes both ways. Both genders need to know when to submit. Thanks for posting that!
