Ken Ham Kicked Out of HS Conventions?

Discussion in 'Homeschooling' started by Ava Rose, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. Embassy

    Embassy New Member

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    The problem is that there are many true Christians who believe in theistic evolution who would appreciate materials directed toward their beliefs. Their interpretation of the Scriptures brings them to that conclusion. Only conservative Christians can have curriculum that matches their beliefs?

    And there are homeschoolers (like myself) who would appreciate scientific materials outside the standard Christian young Earth and secular evolution. I became familiar with Ham my first year homeschooling when we watched a video he made about dinosaurs. We also used materials that talked about evolution. That doesn't mean I believe in evolution, but I do believe in exposing my children to different ideas.
     
  2. heartsathome

    heartsathome New Member

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    I am confused! This link goes to a statement that says this in one paragraph, making it sound like they have to profess faith in Christ:

    ...However, we will continue to provide speakers representing the young earth position whose scientific credentials are impeccable and who can testify to saving faith in the Lord Christ Jesus.

    And this one, down a bit further, says they do not have to agree with their statement of faith.

    We do not require that an attendee, speaker or exhibitor affirm their agreement to our Statement of Faith, or our Young Earth position.

    Am I missing something? :confused:
     
  3. heartsathome

    heartsathome New Member

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    I do NOT believe you can be a true, born-again Christian with a saving relationship in Jesus Christ and ALSO believe in evolution! That is FALSE, FALSE, FALSE! I will stand up for truth, as this is totally NOT truth! Evolution is NOT of God!

    The problem is there are many people who claim Christianity who do not know what the Bible says because they don't read it! Believing in God and the fact that Jesus died on the cross does not create a born-again Christian out of someone. The Bible says "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" James 2:19

    Belief in God does NOT make someone a Christian. You cannot believe "some" of God and "some" of the world. Evolution has been proven false on several different accounts by scientists themselves. It is man made.
     
  4. Embassy

    Embassy New Member

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    I guess we just disagree completely then :) We must have very different soteriological viewpoints because I don't equate right believing with salvation, but resting in Jesus. Demons could believe right and that doesn't make them saved.

    Are your referring to macroevolution or microevolution or the whole kit and kaboodle?

    It is a bit insulting to suggest that those who believe theistic evolution don't read their Bible. The ones I know who believe that do read their Bible. They just don't come to the same conclusion that you do.
     
  5. heartsathome

    heartsathome New Member

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    I am not "educated" in the different types of evolution. I don't even know those terms...so, I guess you have intrigued me and now I have to research it.

    It doesn't surprise me that the world would twist evolution into something that also tries to incorporate God though. That is trying to shape God into what people thinks He should be, like making a God to suit "our" beliefs. That is called idolatry.

    I have more to say, but it will have to wait because I am needed by my daughter! :confused:
     
  6. Actressdancer

    Actressdancer New Member

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    I meant that it's not true that your opinion doesn't matter!
     
  7. kbabe1968

    kbabe1968 New Member

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    I would have to say, as much respect I have for Ken Ham. I agree with the WHY he did it. But, yes. I don't agree with the HOW he did it.

    Although....I don't know.

    Ugh. This makes my life difficult. Now I don't WANT to go to the only HS convention I CAN go to.

    Ugh. :(
     
  8. Marty

    Marty New Member

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    Thanks Amy! That makes me feel better. :D
    As far as attending or not attending this particular convention, this is what I think. If I would have attended the convention had Ken Ham never been invited in the first place, then I would still go. If I wasn't going for the specific purpose of seeing him, then it doesn't matter that I wouldn't be seeing him anyway. His not being there doesn't effect why I would be attending, if I were going to attend.

    I might respectfully suggest that if you want to discuss the deep spiritual aspects of this, it might be wise to move the discussion to the Christian section. There are some on this forum that aren't of particular religious persuasion and feel alienated when we (Christians) go at it hammer and tong. Demonstrating a little grace might be appropriate.
     
  9. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    I agree with you 110 percent!

    Also, what goes around, comes around. Ken Ham and others have made it almost impossible for many vendors to exhibit at major homeschooling shows by convincing organizers to have vendors sign a statement that they agree with the creationist view of origins. This is, quite frankly, bullying. It's equivalent to book-burning, to locking out those whose opinions you disagree with, and it should have no place in Christian society. If the Ham disinvitation causes homeschool conference organizers to rethink their policy on creationist conformance, then some good will have come from this. Plus, it might encourage all concerned to demonstrate a little humility.

    Ken Ham has done a lot of good by forcing us, as Christians, to think through our beliefs on origins, to ensure we don't blindly follow what's written in textbooks. Unfortunately, he's falling into the very trap his work helped us to avoid - by expecting everyone to believe without question what's written in his books. Education is about learning and discussing opposing ideas; it's not about brainwashing and shielding students and others from opposing ideas. If an opinion and viewpoint cannot stand on its merits in the full light of day, then maybe that opinion or viewpoint is faulty.

    You all know where I stand on this, but that's not really the point of this message. We should never ever be afraid of discussion, of being challenged, or of discovering we're wrong about something. This is how society progress, and it's how we as Christians grow in our faith. May we all, including Mr. Ham, retain a teachable spirit.
     
  10. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    Biologos was founded by Dr. Francis Collins - an evangelical Christian, former head of the Human Genome Project, current director of the National Institutes of Health, a brilliant scientist, and a true gentleman. I have enormous admiration for him. I don't know Dr. Enns at all, but I assume that he subscribes to same opinion as Francis Collins, as do I.
     
  11. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    And a brief word about a couple of topics hinted at in this thread.

    1) Nowhere does the Bible say that "thou shalt not believe in evolution to be saved." Large numbers of Christians, including many evangelicals and fundamentalists, believe in the science of evolution. Here are some thoughts on the matter.

    2) Let's not misconstrue the words of others. I don't believe members of Biologos believe the Bible is in any way mistaken. I certainly don't. Let's also be careful, because the Bible we read today DOES contain errors. If you think that's controversial, then maybe this will explain the matter.

    In my experience, it's not wise to criticize fellow believers, so I agree wholeheartedly with the invitation being withdrawn to Mr. Ham.
     
  12. Brooke

    Brooke New Member

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    I have been to conferences--not homeschooling specific, but other church related ones--and the resounding theme is ONE unifying point of interest. They have conventions for Sunday School teachers, youth leaders, homeschoolers, couples, SAHMs, etc. The whole point is to bring lots of people with different ideas together who share ONE thing in common, that being whatever the convention promotes in general.

    This convention, to my understanding, was for homeschooling, possibly limited to Christian homeschooling. How many of us would advocate using only one publisher for our children's studies? Well, some of us do that, but what if it was only one publisher for everyone who claims to be a Christian to use? That would be nonesense.

    Those conventions are designed--and we appreciate the fact that they are--designed to offer a wide array of information from many, many different publishers so that we can select our curriculum and glean from the wisdom of other who have gone before us. I love Ken Ham's work; however, the convention is not the platform from which to preach what he was preaching. He was aware of that from the beginning and was tenacious enough to bring up the fact ahead of time that he would like to go ahead with his planned presentation. That alone should have been a red flag to him that to do so would be a stumbling block to many at the conference. There is a time and place to deliver every message and this was not, obviously, the place for the type of message he was wanting to give.

    I still believe all things happen for the furthering of God's will and the gospel of Jesus Christ. All of this will prove to be for God's glory. Ken Ham is human, as are the organizers of the convention, and I have a feeling that eventually we will become privy to many more motives on either side. Regardless, for him to have been allowed to speak has to be accpeted as foolishness at this point, either because of his error or God's will, or both.

    And I would be wise to stop posting a bunch of gibberish when it is late and I'm beat. :lol:
     
  13. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    Guilty as charged. Sorry!
     
  14. kbabe1968

    kbabe1968 New Member

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    I am no longer conflicted. I've finally read all the things for myself, heard the audio clips for myself, and researched for myself. Gotta remember to trust my gut.

    Thank you, OP for bringing all of this to our attention. I would have never known otherwise, and it has helped me make some very important decisions for this spring, and for next year. :)
     
  15. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    I've been thinking more about this, and there's a couple of really important lessons here.

    1) To really understand our faith, we must understand the challenges to it. By studying opposing opinions, we grow. Also, how will we ever know if we are in error about something unless we constantly challenge ourselves?

    We must be prepared to defend our faith. To do that, we must understand it, be able to defend it, and be prepared to accept when we're wrong. For math, our children endure over a decade of daily lessons so they can understand even the basics. When we challenge them with questions, they must know enough to respond clearly. In this way, they have the insight necessary to study advanced math at university. To know why they're right, they must know why others are wrong and be able to counter their arguments. To counter arguments, they must know and understand them. This is education.

    In the current age, the Christian faith is being ridiculed and challenged aggressively. In the last week alone, I've seen phrases such as "religion is extinct" and "in God we rust." We can't just respond with platitudes and phrases that anyone can pick up in minutes. We must understand the challenges, know our faith really well, and reveal false arguments for what they are.

    Why is the human genome almost identical to the chimp's? Why do 'markers' in the DNA of a hippo appear in the DNA of a whale? These are valid questions to which we must have answers. I gave another example: Why are there obvious errors in the Bible we read today? What are the implications? It's pointless to respond that "there are no errors", because there are - but there are good reasons for this. Faith is crucially important, but blind faith is laziness on our part.

    From his own words, it appears that Ken Ham expects blind faith in his interpretation of the past. Others are even more vehement than he - berating, looking down on, and questioning the faith of anyone who dares to disagree. The work of millions of smart scientists, many of them sincere Christians, must be ignored. Why? Because Ken Ham and his organization demand conformance - and that is arrogance. He's wrong on this point, and his words and actions undermine the basic principles of education. I hope he realizes this before it's too late.

    2) It's a general rule in science, and in life, that it's OK to attack the argument but it's not OK to attack the person. It's not unlike the mantra to "love the sinner but not the sin." We may disagree fundamentally with someone's opinion, but that does not give us the right to hurt or attack that person.

    At the most fundamental level, I disagree with today's aggressive atheists, and in particular the activities of Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris. Let's take Christopher Hitchens as an example. He wrote a book called 'God is not great' that's on the bookshelf of an increasing number of atheists. Hitchens is also a journalist and political commentator - a very good one.

    Hitchens is now suffering from terminal cancer, and he's been writing about this. To our shame, he's received much 'hate mail' from supposed Christians, people who make it clear that they're delighted at his suffering and wish him to go to hell. No matter how much I may disagree with this man, I would never wish him ill. We can attack his arguments, and I do so passionately, but I would do all I can to help him in his situation.

    As a side note, Hitchens wrote in one recent article how Francis Collins made a point of finding him and spending hours with him - just to be a friend. This loving action of Collins, who didn't have to do this, clearly spoke volumes to Hitchens. Maybe, for the first time, the Lord touched his hard heart. Hitchens knows the Christian gospel very well. Maybe the patient love of a Christian friend will allow him, at last, to embrace it.

    When Ken Ham attacks the individual, he is going too far. Of course he has the right to challenge the opinions of others, and to do so aggressively. A healthy debate helps us to distinguish truth from error. On the other hand, personal attacks usually imply a weak argument - and Ken Ham is undermining his cause by doing this. On this point, too, I hope he realizes before more damage is done.

    So, for both of these reasons, I agree that it's appropriate for the convention organizers to withdraw their invitation to Ken Ham. It took guts to do this, and I hope they don't suffer for it. All credit as well to Dr. Jay Wile, a committed creationist, who understands the principles at work here and has demonstrated maturity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
  16. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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    Honestly, I don't believe that for a moment. Do you think someone with such an opinion would speak publicly at a Christian event?! The founders of BioLogos are evangelical Christians. As with any organization, some people may be associated with it who are not representative of its core beliefs, but I doubt very much that Dr. Enns falls into that category.

    One look at the AiG articles reveals what's going on. They term BioLogos an "extreme liberal" organization. This is trying to apply the kiss of death to a group with a different viewpoint on origins, and it's sad that some people are willing to accept such rubbish without even looking into it. From the perspective of science, I agree with Francis Collins and with his BioLogos initiative and I disagree with the assertions of Answers in Genesis, but I'm not going to brand AiG an "extreme fanatical group." Ken Ham is playing politics, and too many are blindly following.

    It was quite amusing the other day. I was in discussion with someone, and he happened to have extreme views on creation. When he realized I don't subscribe to a young earth and I do agree with the science of evolution, I was termed a liberal, a papist, and a heretic in the space of a few seconds. Why people feel the need to resort to personal insults I shall never know. As it happens, the two of us, since then, have gotten along well. I wonder if, one day, he'll realize that these things don't affect our salvation and that his initial knee-jerk reaction may have been a little premature. :)
     
  17. Mom2scouts

    Mom2scouts New Member

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    I've heard several people say that they are Christians and since Ken Ham pointed out the BioLogos website, they have become quite interested in the intersection of Christianity and science. I wonder if he realized that he was actually promoting Biologos to many Christians who want to study the "other side".
     
  18. Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve Active Member

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  19. Jackie

    Jackie Active Member

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    I had checked out the BioLogos web site earlier when this conversation started, and REALLY felt uncomfortable with it.
     
  20. Embassy

    Embassy New Member

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    Thanks for the link to Biologos. My boys and I will be doing an in depth study of creation and evolution in a couple years and I'm on the lookout for books. Books on young earth and secular evolution abound. I noticed they offer lots of books. If you have read some of them is there one that you would recommend that would hit the main points of the theistic evolution viewpoint?

    I'm still looking for books on the more rare (apparently) old earth/young creation and old earth/literal Genesis and gap theory viewpoints. If you know of any please share.

    While I'm at it I might as well ask because it seems as though you might know...I'm looking for a book or two that demonstrates evidence of God in science through things such as fractal life forms.
    :)
     

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