Playing Devil's Advocate for a Moment

Discussion in 'Homeschooling in the News' started by 2littleboys, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. 2littleboys

    2littleboys Moderator

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  3. kbabe1968

    kbabe1968 New Member

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    Play away...I know quite a few excellent teachers.
     
  4. Lindina

    Lindina Active Member

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    When I worked in public school for twenty years, I rarely had anything bad to say about ANY of the teachers I worked with. Yes, there were some few who had entered the profession because they just didn't know what else to do when they graduated high school, there were some few who didn't seem to really like kids, there were some few who were clearly incompetent and whose IQs I actually doubted. But they were very few. By far, the majority of the teachers were hard-working, diligent, caring, knowledgeable, professional -- it's the system that's broken.
     
  5. frogger

    frogger New Member

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    I agree, it's the system that's broken. I think that teachers get a bad rap since it is so hard to get rid of a truly bad teacher, extraordinarily hard. People might remember the really great teacher they had and they are going to remember the horrid one they had all sorts of problems with but they won't remember the ones who did a good job but nothing extraordinary. It is just the way people are wired. I also think there is backlash when they can't get rid of those teachers, even if they are few, towards the teaching profession itself.

    I think of all my freedom as a homeschooler and wonder how any teacher could possibly teach students when they are constrained by law, district decisions on curriculum, parents who side with their children on every discipline issue while their child is disrupting class, and all the extra paperwork, teaching to the test, and days off for pointless meetings and of course, politics. There are those who seem to rise above it and manage to do their work anyway but I think it takes an amazing amount of talent (especially with discipline issues) but many are ham strung by all those issues. It's too bad politicians and administrators want to make things better by controlling the teachers and doing all this other garbage rather than just giving the teachers freedom to do their job. Of course, this would also require being able to get rid of the truly bad ones.
     
  6. Jackie

    Jackie Active Member

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    I would agree with him!
     
  7. SenseiMitch

    SenseiMitch New Member

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    Hmmm... I think I am going to (partially) be the nay sayer here...

    Years ago teachers where under paid, today however, the vast majority of teachers make a competitive wage. There are many problems with the public school system (which I am a product of). The first problem is the excessive administrative bloat, superintendents, principles, vices-etc, all typically paid significantly more than the teachers, most around this area are 6 figure salaries. That doesn't improve the education of the kids in the public schools. Ten-year is another problem. Despite all the excellent teachers it only takes a few bad apples to destroy our kids.

    Now that I have said that. Teachers should be paid more, but they should also be held to a higher standard. Some of that should be based on the performance of the kids they teach however the teacher can't control the kids home life, etc (nor should they). However a good teach can hold the bar high for the kids they teach while motivating them to succeed. I was at a training session (for k-8 teachers) and the trainer hit it on the head, she said, "we (teachers) know what doesn't work, so why are we still doing it?" Back to my point, only in public schools do you need to have a degree in "teaching or education". In private schools they seek out subject matter experts, meaning their math teachers have a college degree in mathematics, not in "teaching math". Teachers, like college professors should also be required to take sabbaticals to freshen up on their subject matter and to publish periodically. None of those things will happen because the teachers unions are to strong.

    The article is self-serving as the author is a teacher, instead of addressing the problems with the system he states an emotional case defending teachers and (in the end) blaming the kids and parents. That isn't to say that parents are not responsible, they are!

    Nut all of this is moot. Why? Because in most states, the Board of Education (by State Statute) has autonomy. Meaning the people who pay the taxes, the towns have no say in the education budget or how it is spent. In our state the law states that the (non discretionary) education budget can not be reduced (even if the student population decreases). In our town we have K-8, with two schools K-2 and 3-8, we have a Superintendent, and two principles. The town cut their discretionary budget in an attempt to have them reduce the number of principles (making 6 figures ~$125k). The board of education cut an art teacher. So much for "it's for the children" slogan boards of education like to tout every time their is a budget fight.

    Be objective. Compare the salaries of non-public to public school teachers. Compare the scores of public and non-public students. Magnet schools are improving the picture slightly however they are still public schools, they are just trying to model themselves after private successes.

    Guess I had more of an opinion then I thought...hope it is received well as that is my intent. We home school because the school around here are more interested in socializing our kids than they are in educating them. If you dig enough and do enough research you will see the failings of our educational system we built into its foundation. And don't even get me started on the increasing problems with Higher Education!!
     
  8. Jackie

    Jackie Active Member

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    Mitch, my husband is a public school teacher. He has taught high school math and computers; he currently is teaching middle school computers in what most people would consider an inner-city school. When he taught Alg. 1, the district declared that ALL students MUST have Alg. 1 by 9th grade. So he was trying to teach Alg. 1 to kids who would add 1/4 + 1/4 = 2/8. That would be half of his class. So he has a choice. He can start with what they know and teach from there. They will learn something, but he'd never get to teaching the material. Or he can teach the book, knowing full well the kids are already lost. He would hold "office hours" after school, and no one would show up. As I said, he currently teaches middle school computers. This past quarater, he flunked 19 out of 45 kids (and that's just one class!). Why? Because they didn't bother to do their work. The administrators told him he needs to allow the kids to make up the work. He's willing, but unless the kids make the effort, it won't work. They had a Behavior Plan in place this year; the principal didn't stick with it. He has been sexually harrassed by 13 and 14 year old girls, and the most the adminstration gives them is a smack on the hand. Three days suspension at the most, for repeated offenses. If a child is Special Ed, the law says that the child cannot be suspended for more than ten days. If they are, the school has to pay for a tutor while the child is gone. The Board doesn't have money for this in the budget, so the school has to find the money itself, which means it solves the problem by not suspending the kid. The students are running the school. Then, a few years back, the district realized that if the listed his technology classes as busineness classes, they'd get more money from the State. Trouble is, he wasn't business certified. So he had to go back and take classes (at our expense) to be "qualified" to teach the classes he had been teaching for the last 15 years. This happened in the middle of the year; they paid a retired teacher to sit in the class with him, a teacher who was business certified but knew nothing about technology, while my husband taught the class.

    Merit pay is the biggest bunch of crap ever. It will only discourage teachers from teaching at the "bottom" schools. Principals are over-worked, and have to lick the boots of the school board. We've got plenty of administrators that aren't even in the school building; these are the ones that need cut! And I'd like to see EVERY SINGLE BOARD MEMBER be required to volunteer a certain number of hours EACH WEEK in the building working with the kids in one way or another.
     
  9. 2littleboys

    2littleboys Moderator

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    When I was teaching, I couldn't even afford an apartment. I was living below the poverty line, but state law required that part of my check be taken out for retirement. I didn't have insurance, and I was living with a friend. When I quit, I got an entry-level job as a receptionist with full salary/benefits and normal business hours. I still wasn't making much, but when I broke down how many hours per week I was working, I made a lot more than I did when I was teaching. Shortly after that, I started working from home making more than double what I was making as a teacher.

    I enjoyed teaching, but I hated the administration and parents. That's why I left and why I won't go back. My certifications expired years ago, but thankfully you don't need to be certified to homeschool or to teach in a private school.
     
  10. pecangrove

    pecangrove New Member

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    There are so very many things wrongs with our educational system, I am afraid it will never be fixed. :(
    I know some great teachers who really try their best with their classes, and I know 1 or 2 who are probably only there for a check and 2-months vacation.
     
  11. SenseiMitch

    SenseiMitch New Member

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    Jackie, First your husband sounds like one of the good teachers. Your description of him reminds me of a teacher that helped me in High School. My Honors English teacher was useless. The class was the last period of the day and she would leave class 15-20 minutes before the end of class and never return almost daily. So I was failing and trying to get help, she'd tell me to meet her, when I would show she would either feign ignorance or not be there, same result. Enter Mrs. Abbott, she worked with me 3 times a week for part of the 3rd and the entire 4th semester. It is important to note I flunked the mid-term...badly. The cumulative final...I got a 98%. I went from the worst student in the class to the best. That is the difference a good teacher can make, your husband sounds like my Mrs. Abbott.

    You are correct about the students playing the system. Their parents aren't involved since (many) feel they don't need to be since they pay their taxes.

    Public School could be great however we have to take the rose colored glasses off and change some laws. Like I said, at least in my state, the autonomy the School Boards enjoy needs to be removed. The cost per student at a local private school is ~4500.00 they offer all the same programs as the public school, where the cost per student is ~11,000.00. You would think the grades would be better at the public school, they are not, the private school out scores them significantly. And neither is in an urban or depressed area.

    There is no one answer as the problem has been allowed to fester for far to long. Think infected toenail ten years ago and gangrene to the hip now, and we are still ignoring the problem.

    The first step to solving any problem, is admitting you have a problem. Everyone can know you have a problem, but until you admit it, you will never start to address it. And you certainly shouldn't ask the people (administrators and bureaucrats) who created the problem to fix it!

    I feel for your husband, he sounds like he really has to fight the system to try and make a positive impact.
     
  12. Jackie

    Jackie Active Member

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    He's tired. He can actually retire mid-way next year, but it would cost our family $1,000/month for insurance for myself and the kids. We've discussed him retiring, and then seeing if he could get on at a private Christian school. They don't pay as much, but if we had that WITH his retirement, it would work.

    I think part of the problem is the Teacher's Union. They don't care about the kids OR the teachers; they care about political power, and nothing else.
     
  13. Lindina

    Lindina Active Member

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    While I was working in public school, there were *just enough* totally incompetent teachers for me to want to advocate for requiring an IQ score of at least 110 before somebody could enroll in the College of Education. It made me wish there was some way to be sure someone trying to become a teacher really liked kids. I got really really tired of the administrators and school board members never being quite sure of what our team actually did, but being very certain that we were doing it wrong! I got really really tired of there being two kinds of irate parents: those whose kids didn't qualify for special ed and were unhappy because their kids would have to actually work for their grades, and those whose kids did qualify for special ed and were unhappy because we said they were labelled (sorry, no resource room without label).
     
  14. SenseiMitch

    SenseiMitch New Member

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    No argument on what the Teacher's Unions are interested in. Unions in general are not what they once were, today they are political tools used to siphon campaign contributions for the selected party/candidate. But again no one wants to question (or listen) the current systems.

    The health insurance is a big problem, though I am opposed to Obamacare/Romneycare or any other government involvement (but that is a different dicussion!) I can't believe that the teacher's and teacher unions have not secured retirement health benefits. This is also one of the huge challenges for most home schoolers, surviving on one income and providing for the retirement for the family. We have made the conscious decision like most but it still worries me.
     
  15. Jackie

    Jackie Active Member

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    Oh, they have secured retirement benefits for him, but not for myself and the kids. He can legally opt out of the NEA, but it is difficult to do. He chooses not to, because they WILL offer some protection in case of legal hassles, and with what is going on today, that's a very real possibility for ANY teacher. However, it bothers me very much to know that a certain amount of his "union dues" go to support candidates/issues we fight against. Actually, we've found the union to be quite helpful come election day. He gets a list of those that have the union endorsement; we'll take that to the polls with us and (if we are uncertain who to vote for in any given race) vote for the OTHER candidate. Back when Clinton was running for his second term they called the house. My husband asked the lady, "And why would I want to hold up a man with the morals of an alley cat as an example for my students to follow?" LOL! That shut her up!
     
  16. SenseiMitch

    SenseiMitch New Member

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    Jackie, I like your style! Your husbands too! I work at a University (which is even worse than a teacher's union!) I do the same thing with their rooster of candidates! ;-)
     

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