Spanking Children - California

If the government has the right to tell us we are not allowed to spank our children, they will then feel they can tell us where we have to send our children to school, where we have to send our children to worship, and on and on and on. We will not have any control over our children at all. What does that remind you of??? I say keep out of my children/grandchildrens lives, God gave them to us to raise, nobody else. I know this is not the Christian area - but - the Bible does say "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes" "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame".

 

Unfortunately we are under a godless government.

Kris, did SS have a warrent to enter your home? In California they cannot enter your home without a warrant, which means they have to have probable cause to get a warrent issued by a judge. This doesn't mean all SS workers or CPS follow the law. They have unlawfully entered into far to many California homes without consent. The only way they can enter without a warrent around here is if they see it as an emergency and even then they need legitimate reasons. Since some SS workers, etc... do not abide by the law and California being a sue happy state, people are getting them in the pocket book where it hurts. Unfortunately many California homeschoolers and people in general do not realize because of the Calabretta v. Floyd, civil rights lawsuit, all social workers can not enter the home legally without a warrent. This is not simply for homeschoolers either. Officials are not immune to having to follow the law, although some think they are.:roll:
The Calabretta is a binding authority throughout the Ninth Circuit-Alaska, Arizona, California, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Northern Mariana Islands, Oregon, and Washington.
I have a copy that I keep by my door because HSLDA said it would be wise to hand it to the authorities if they ever try to enter our home without a warrent.
Patty

 

Just a little backstory to this story... they are modeling this "law" after ones that are already in place in some European countries. Sweden,Norway,Denmark, etc, they all have a law just like this. So be warned..if you go to Europe and spank your kids in public you ,may be in a lot of trouble!
A few "expects" and the writer of this law were on Good Morning America Saturday, it was a very heated debate. The childcare expects keep saying it was a needed law that children younger then 3 can not understand why they were being spanked, that they just think you are being mean. Well the opposing voice ( the expert againist the law) said that if a puppy can learn potty training and not to bite things and understand that it will get spanked for that then a child should be able to understand that concept also. Man you would have thought World War 3 broke out after he said that! The Childcare experts were all yelling at him and the hosts of the show were kind of laughing, it was something else!
IMO this is VERY dangerous, slipper slope that we, as a country ,are on. Ohio Grandma has it right, next they will pass this "law" , they already passed a "law" againist trans-fat and foie gra(duck livers) because it was making people fat and costing the government Medical/Medicare money, who is to say that the next 'law" will NOT be about homeschooling? Its just a matter of WHEN not if anymore. If we start now by saying this law is wrong ,then they will know that parents are not going to let the government run our PERSONAL lives.

 

My husband had a point. If it comes down to following God's law or the law of the land, we need to follow God's law. Not all children need to be spanked. I've dealt with children that a simple no is traumatic to them. I've met other children that weigh consequence against the action and will still do the action- I'm raising one
Also, if it comes down to smacking my child's hand to keep them from touching a hot stove- I would rather my child be temporarily hurt from a smack, then permantly scarred from touching the stove.

 

Patty, I they didn't have a warrent. At that time in life I didn't know they had too. My life was mess then, two very young children and a sick dh. I was so stress out.

 

First of all, spanking is NOT abuse. I don't think a law needs to be in place for those who cannot control their anger. I have a 20 month old and I have swatted her. My other kids were spanked under 4. I also think it is insane that the article implied someone would spank an infant or a newborn. I am not for any law that takes away parental rights. NO matter how you feel about spanking, you need to see where this is heading. The state should not be allowed to tell us how to raise our kids. Where does it stop? As Jackie said, there will always be child abuse. Those people need to be dealt with in an approiate manner. I am also insulted that I would be lumped in the same catorgory as a man who beat his kid black and blue. I mean c'mon!

Sloan, I understand why you hesitate to spank. I think you are being wise. A child who was a victim of abuse needs special handling and attention. However, there is a difference between that child and my children. My children are not abused. My children are not tramatized by getting spanked. In fact, when my kids see other kids in stores acting crazy, my dd even says they need to be spanked. lol. Oh, and Sloan, I am not directing comments at you...I think you are making very considerate and wise decisions. I thank God for people like yourself, who take in foster kids and treat them with such love.

 

Kris, that must have been nerve recking. SS appears to hold a lot of authority and sadly many abuse their power. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Patty

 

This law will not stop abuse. Abusers will continue to abuse others. The law will attempt to distract others, who do not abuse, from disciplining their children as they see fit. I think they need to focus on the laws that deal with the consequences abusers will face because abusers are not going to go away due a law.
Patty

 

Another thing, think about the children who will be out of control because they know that they will not be allowed to be spanked - if this country stops spanking in the homes - the homes will be just like the classrooms - no respect, no control and children running the homes instead of parents. Sloan, I also understand where you are coming from - not all children respond to spankings, I have one that we discipline other ways - None of my dc or dgc have been abused in that way, so I don't understand completely. I just don't want the government to be in control of how I raise my children and yes, this will not stop the abusers. They will do it whether there is a law or not. In fact, there is a law now, we cannot abuse our children, people go to jail for that??? Why then this new law??? People have way too much time on their hands and it's not being used to think rationally.

 

Actually, I think the abuse will go up, not down. Parents will have had that method of discipline taken from them. They will have to resort to others that might not be as effective for their kids. More kids will be more out of control, which means more frustrated parents, which causes them to react out of frustration and anger.

Kris, I think I mentioned one time that I was in a store where a preschooler was in the shopping cart, screaming his head off. The guy ahead in me in line complained about the child's behavior. I pretty much went off on this guy. Told him that the child probably wanted to run up and down the aisles, and the mom wasn't allowing it. At least she was trying to control the kid! And of course she couldn't give it the swat it needed in public!

So I guess your husband was suppose to take your precious toddler by the hand and tell it, "Honey, Daddy loves you, but you can't throw candy at the store! That's not nice!" and your little one will understand immediately and stop, right? And they say kids can't understand why they're being swatted, but they CAN understand reasoning? Yeah, right!!!

 

""I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child," Lieber said. "Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?""

"Lieber said her proposal would make spanking, hitting and slapping a child under 4 years old a misdemeanor. Adults could face up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine."
_______________________________________________

I object to the wording used here....spanking is not the same as beating, whipping, slapping or hitting. The wording is telling us the mood and motivation of this law. Soon, we will have no rights as parents to discipline our children. If spanking is abolished, do you think it will stop there? Will we be told how many minutes are acceptable in time-outs? And let's discuss how this law will be implemented. Do you think it will just be those who spank in public? Will children be interviewed at school or doctor's offices without parental consent? I don't think these social workers are going to wait on phone calls and public spankings. I also don't care to have spanking defined. Will they tell me I can't spank with a belt or a paddle? Too many rights are in jeopardy when we have laws for the "welfare of the child." Will homeschooling be abolished because the state can't keep a watchful eye on our kids? I have already told my kids awhile back not to discuss the way we discipline in mixed company. Never know what busy body will think the welfare of my child is better off in the hands of social services.

 

So no one here thinks 2 or 3 is too young to get spanked?

I have to say that if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never spanked Kevin when he was small. There are too many better ways to handle misbehavior. Spanking is all I saw growing up- with a belt, paddle ball paddle, or whatever was handy. Kids on tv got sent to their rooms! That wasn't real punishment!

Jeannie has to do something totally incredible to get it on the butt. I'd go as far as to say if she had tossed candy like Kris's little one I wouldn't swat her for it.

Of course... Karma will kick in the next time we're in the grocery store and she'll do just that! You all know that, right??

 

I will spank for complete and willing disobedience for authority or if Ems does something to physically hurt another person. I have not spanked her in ages and I may not ever have to again. I do believe their are other options but not all options are appropriate for each negetive action a child takes. I think the punishment needs to fit the crime. Each child is different and only the parents of each child can determine what is appropriate for their child. I do not think spanking a child under 4 years of age is abuse, I think beating a person of any age is abuse. Children are learning from day one and I do not believe in allowing certain behaviors to pass with simply a time out. I do think spanking a baby is wrong but most people I know do not spank babies.
Patty

 

Well Becky I just don't believe that the goverment should be able to regulate how we as parents decide to discipline our children. Now I have very very rarely spanked my kids - never really had to. I use the naughty step with dd3 and it works great with her and dd10 has maybe been spanked once or twice. But there are instances when a simple pop on the butt is in order. I'm not one who has ever used a belt or anything other than my hand and even then only a pop on the bottom to get their attention and only when neccessary.
I guess my gripe really has a lot less to do with spanking and a lot more to do with government intrusion into our private lives.

 

Parenting is often reactionary. If you grew up as you did, Becky, I can see why spanking seems harsh to you. If one grows up where spanking was done correctly...not out of anger...for discipline and correction, than one may not be belt shy. KMIM?

We also all have differing opinions on what is spanking worthy. Of course if it is used for everything it will be come ineffective. I spank for lying or direct disobedience. I know that sounds pretty general...but it is easier for me to take things on a case by case basis. For instance, the first time my son rode his bike in the street after being told not to, I spanked him. That was serious and disobedient regardless of it being the first time or not. Now, for throwing candy in a store...I may say something first and if it continued I would spank for sure. However, I can't say it was unreasonable for Kris's dh to spank the child. I also think spanking should be done without emotion. It is a punishment meant for correction, not for humiliation or in anger. I also don't spank in front of others...I think that is embarressing to the child and uncomfortable for everyone else. Again, not to say that a swat on the butt for misbehaving in a store counts for that.

I see no problem with spanking a child at the age of 2 or 3. In fact, I think that is when it is most effective. I hardly have to spank my ds now at the age of 7. He used to get spanked several times a week at the age of 2 and 3. My ds got spanked a whole lot at 3 but hardly ever after that.

Once I was in store, and I was speaking to a man who mentioned he has a child. I asked him how old his dd was and he said that she was four. I commented that 4 is a nice age. He replied that it was a great age because by four kids have been spanked enough that they know how to act. LOL. That is not an example of anything...just an antidote. Although, I must say I tend to agree.

I also think that it is more abusive to scream and yell and possibly call your kids stupid than spank them. That is also just a thought...not implying that those who don't spank do that.

 

Again, we are talking definition. Becky, you said that you considered a "swat" on the behind OK. But these people feel that ANY physical discipline is the same as "beating" the child. One swat with a wooden spoon they could consider "beating with a rod".

A case in point. I'm sure Ava Rose and G'ma has heard about the parents who were recently convicted for keeping their special needs adopted kids in "cages". These "cages" were a lot like big baby cribs. Beds with bars on them. They had been advised to do this BY THE PSYCHOLOGIST. It had to do with the safety of the children. They somehow had it rigged to where an alarm went off so they knew when the children got up. Again, this had to do with safety of special needs children, and they were doing this on the advice of a "professional". Well, people hear the word "cages", and I think right away of what one would keep a dog in, like a kennel, not a very large crib. So public opinion was very much against these "abusive" parents from the start, just on the term used.

If we were to take a poll asking how many thought it was appropriate to "beat" a 4YO occassionally, how many thought it appropriate to "spank" a 4YO occassionally, and how many thought it was appropriate to give a 4YO a "swat on the rear" occasionally, you'd get three very different responses from the exact same people. It's all a matter of wording.

 

Ok Becky, you said you wouldn't have swat her if she would of done what my dd did? well I want to make it clear it wasn't a swat it was a pad on the bottom and remember she had diapers on. What would you have done? Picked her and took her out of the store and talked to her. KIND of late for a little one. Dr. Spock always said if you don't bite the problem in the butt right there on the spot they wouldn't remember what they did by the time you take them to the car. I feel we did the right thing. Social worker or no social worker at my door. If we had to do it all over again I would still back my dh up. I think it's bad when a Child in a store is having a fit and the parents do nothing about it. Shows bad parenting in my book.

And for the books my dd has never and I mean never had her bottom pad again. She learned from it. So, it must of worked.
​

 

They looked like cages, Jackie!! I saw that story on the news. I wondered if the Psycho got his degree from a Cracker Jack box!

 

Yes, Jackie, I agree. I did hear about the people who put their special needs children in "cages". I also thought it was safer for everyone involved. As I followed the case, it seemed like the children had some real issues. We built a place for our dgd - it is a 1/4 wall around an area 12 X 12. I can see her, but she can't get out. I can lift her over the side. When people see this they say, "Oh I see you built a cage for Gianna" I immediately say NO it is a play area. I can just see this getting around that I keep Gianna in a cage. It's hard raising children in this time. When I was being raised, it was so different. My parents did not abuse me, but we did get spanked if we needed it - in public or not. People didn't hesistate to spank in public. I never was spanked after I turned 4 - I didn't need it. I learned at an early age. Of course that was back in the 50's.

 

Kris, my 'swat' and your 'pad' sound like the same thing. A swat is barely forceful, but on a 2 or 3 yr old it would do the trick. My 'swat' would make an older child have to stifle laughter!

No, I still don't think I'd do that, though. I'm not putting your husband down, either- please get that. That's not what I'm saying at all. If it had been me, her tossing the candy was turmoil enough. I'd have laid her out to be sure and tried to get her to help clean it up. If that didn't work I'd have handled it outside, not in front of a cast of thousands.

Jeanne gets a mouthy streak when she's tired and she'll shriek at the top of her lungs. When that happens I hasten to get us out of the environment and handle it outside. By that time she has created enough of a circus, so why add to it ?