The question of salvation came up in another thread. There have been two thoughts about how salvation is obtained and if it can be lost. It was suggested that we open another thread for discussion. I will open the floor to anyone. Please let us know what you think and what scriptures lead you to that belief. I'll add mine later, I off to take dd to the doctor. Ugh... morning appointments :roll:
Just as no child is born in the same way from it's mother's womb, no child of God is born again in the same way. For me, I called upon the name of the Lord to save me. I was explained how "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) " How many lies does it take to be a liar, how many times do you have to steal to be a thief...? Then, the Bible tells us "For the wages [result] of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)--spiritual separation from God . The soul that sinneth shall die... Jesus Christ is God's only provision for Man's sin. He died in our place ... "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8) I was then asked if I connected the two thoughts...The wages of sin is death and Christ died for those sins, for my sin, acknowledging again that yes I am a sinner...in need of a Saviour. Christ defeated death...He Rose from the Dead ..."... Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures ... he was buried ... he rose again the third day according to the scriptures ... he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once" (1st Corinthians 15:3-6) I was then asked if I believe what was just shown to me out of the Bible. I said yes. Then I was shown in Romans 10: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Taking God at His Word, (I was asked if I wanted to be saved.) I prayed to Him, asking Him to save me, knowing that I was a sinner and needed the risen Christ to be mine. Then to know...for always and for certain. The scripture above doesn't say may be saved, might be saved, only saved till they sin again, it reads shall be saved! Since then I have learned much, and am still learning, but I know whom I believeth, He is able...I am assured in 1 John 5:12 & 13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Thanks for asking, this was good for the heart to write out this morning!
Okay, I'll bite! You all knew I would! I love to discuss the Word. I just pray it comes across as me trying to give God the glory and not a "show what I know' session. Believe me, I am not bible scholar. Forgive me in advance as I feel this will be lengthy. I feel the logical order to discuss this issue is to discuss the authority of the Word, what the Word says about salvation and then what the Words says about eternal security. I will share with you what I learned in discipleship training and through my own study of the Word. To be quite honest, most will come from my lessons on discispleship as it is already laid out nicely in outline form. The Word of God The Word has a significant role in salvation. 1 Peter 1:23: this verse tells us that a man is born again by the "by the word of God." Ephesians 2:8-9: "For grace are ye saved through faith..." Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." James 1:21 tell us that the Word of God is "able to save your souls." The Bible is the ultimate authority. Look to 2 Peter 1:16-21 compared with Matthew 17:1-9. Also see 2 Peter 3:3-10. The bible is the infallible standard that is greater than any experience. Peter says the Word of God is more sure than the audible voice or appearace of God. Salvation Key elements: Substitutionary Death Romans 5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This death was a vicarious dath. He did not die only for our benefit but in place of us....a subsitituionary sacrifice. Romans 5:9: Much more than, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. The blood effects salvation but Christ sustains it. Eph 1:7, 2:13, Col. 1:14, Heb. 9:12-15. Typologically, subsitiutionary death in the old testament was done through the sacrifice of animals for sin. Gen.22:8. Seminal Headship of Adam Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Adam is the seed upon which the human race was born. His sin and the fall of man is shared with us. Romans 5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Imputed Sin Sin was imputed to all when the sin of Adam was charged to the account of every person. We are all connected to Adam so therefore we all have the sin of Adam. Adam's vote for sin, as if he were in Congress, obligates his constituentes for a certain indebtedness. (that anaolgy is not my own...so if it is good don't credit it to me and if it is bad than I am off the hook..LOL) Romans 5:21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Imputed sin can only be dealt with through imputed righteousness. So as we have imputed sin we also have imputed righteousness. Logically, if we have imputed righteousness we cannot loose it like a bad habit. How do I get saved? Ok...I am so copying this one to the letter from a note I have on my discipleship lesson. lol John 1: 12-13 says, "But as many as recieved him (that is your decision to trust Jesus Christ as your Savior) to them gave he power to become the sons of God (your entrance into God's family) even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man (it is not a physical birth); but of God." (it is a spiritual birth) Ok..me again...or well..God again...here's more scripture: Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offese of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Chrst, hath abounded unto many. In sum, we are saved by grace through faith by the blood of Christ. We obtain this salvation by believing in our hearts that Christ rose again according to the scriptures after being sacrificed for our sin...moreover after becoming sin so we would enjoy imputed righteousness to remedy our imputed sin. We confess this with our mouth...through prayer. Can salvation be lost? Will God or man cause me to loose my salvation? Jesus Christ promises that "....him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 God will not cast you for any reason. John 10:27-29 clearly states that NO MAN can cause you to loose your salvation because God is greater than all men. Can you do something to loose your salvation? Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. It is a GIFT of God. No man can loose his salvation on his own because no man can earn salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 Galatians 3:10 and James 2:10 states that if salvation were in our hands it would easily slip through our fingers. However, it is in Christ's hands as stated in 2Timothy 1:12. Galatians 2:21. If we could become righteous on our own then the sacrifice of Jesus would have been a waste. Take a look at Romans 8:38-39 that shows NOTHING can cause us to loose our salvation: Death: you cannot loose it when you die. Life: you cannot loose it while alive. Angels: cannot take it from you. Principalities: the govt. can't take it from you. Powers: the devil cannot take it from you. Things present: nothing happening now can take it away. Things to come: nothing in the future can take it away. Height: nothing above you can take it away. Depth: nothing below you can take it away. "nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ our Lord." Your spiritual birth is sealed in heaven by the holy spirit. Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 Compare this to your earthly father....nothing you can say or do or anything else anyone can say or do can change who your biological father is depsite any effort. Your father is not based on you but on your physical birth. You can die but not be UNBORN. Your relationship with God is by a spiritual birth and is not earned or lost by your or any human means. The bible is very clear that salvation is not earned. The bible is also very clear that salvation is not in your hands but in Christ. Your salvation is sealed in the courts of heaven. Once saved, always saved....anyone says differently is underestimating the power and love of Christ. Think for a moment...doesn't it seem more logical in a human mind to think salvation can be lost. I mean we earn things and loose things all the time. We can loose our jobs, our families, our credit, etc, by our works. We can gain things by our works. We are judged by our works on earth. I think the concept that we are given such an awesome gift is just too hard for someone to wrap their minds around. I also think guilt of sin keeps some from thinking they can be saved and still sin or are still worth of salvation. News flash: You ARE NOT worthy of salvation which is why it has to be a free everlasting gift. There are many more verses in the bible that refer to everlasting life and eternal security, I only named a few. I can name more if need be. I am secure in a Savior stronger than any man, stronger than any creature, stronger than myself to hold onto my salvation for all time.
Acts 16:31- They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." This scripture doesn't say to be perfect in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Although striving to be more like Jesus is our goal, God knew we could never attain perfection because we are not perfect. This is why we need our Savior. We are told to believe. All fall short of God's glory. Just because we are not perfect Christians doesn't mean we never believed or no longer believe in Christ. John 10:28-30- And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. I know this scripture was already shared but I believe that the word never means exactly that. NEVER!
For those who believe we can lose(sp?) our salvation, what would cause us to lose it? For example, is it an act or a thought? See this is another reason I believe in once saved, always saved. We sin everyday, throughout the day. We sin in our thoughts, words, actions, when we desire more than we have and so on. None of us would make it heaven if we weren't saved; for good.
Once saved, always saved. Well let me play "devil's advocate" here. All of this is true, not hypothetical. I was baptized as a born again christian ( thats what our church called us), blessed as a Mormon ( when I was born) and went to Christian and Catholic schools until I was 14 years old. Now since I was "saved" when I was a child , then again as a teen and now I am agnostic does that make me "saved" always? I don't think so. I don't believe in God, nor do I believe in the Bible, I don't believe there is a Heaven or Hell and many other thing that christians believe. To be saved still don't I need to follow the teachings of Jesus and God? Don't I also need to believe that these things are real?
You are correct Crystal. Attending church doesn't make a person a Christian. As the scriptures say, those who believe will have everlasting life.
Crystal...I think that you were never saved. Salvation as a child is often an iffy thing...it can happen, no doubt...but I am thinking you just were not saved. Being baptized into a religion is not getting saved. Being blessed as a Mormon or going to school does not incur salvation. Honestly, I simply think you were just never saved to begin with.
When I was 14 and baptized again the pastor said " now you are washed of your sins and are saved in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Walk with him into the Kingdom of Heaven". I had to take classes on salvation and the meaning of being "saved" before I was to be baptized, it was very serious. I had to really believe in the Lord and the Bible and at that time I did. Also Mormons are baptized at 8 and that means they are saved. It has been awhile since I was Mormon but our friends just did this with their child so I believe that is the correct age. I believe its 12 or 14 years old? for Catholics to be "saved". They also have classes and have to state to their teacher that they fully believe that they will be Catholics for life. If their is even a tiny bit of doubt the teacher will not have them take their sacrements. My friend is Catholic and that was her job in the church. So to be saved you need to be an adult? I ran across this website today and I believe that this sums up salvation to me. http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/romsaved.html
That is right you must believe. That is why the once saved always saved is a nice belief but couldn't be true. I fully believed in the Bible and Jesus when I was "saved", later I began questioning it and decided that religion wasn't for me. So if I do not believe I still couldn't be saved. Ava Rose believes I never was saved because I was a "child" ( if you call 14 a child), well I disagree, I think age shouldn't matter if you really Believe and that is what Jesus said it takes to be saved... you must believe in me.
No, you do not need to be an adult to be saved. My kids are 8 and 10 and they are saved. I am sorry if I implied a child could not be saved. From what you describe it sounds like salvation is the passing grade after going to classes and being tested. You see, being saved is a decision but it does not come without a heart change. It also does not come if your heart does not truly believe. I have known people who got saved as kids and realized when they were adults that they never reallly got saved. Why? Well, as kids they wanted to be saved because it was what they were trained to do or it was expected or they hear the word and want it also. They also want to go to Heaven rather than burn in Hell. Yet, they may not truly believe or understand what salvation is..that Jesus died for your sins and his blood covers you. Just because a preacher baptizes you it does not mean you are saved. The preacher is doing his job and is trusting that you are saved if you are getting baptized. Yet, he has to go on what you say as he cannot see your heart. So, salvation is about a heart change and truly believing and understanding subsitionary death and the blood of Christ covers your sins and that Jesus died and rose again. you may have been able to recite this stuff and have a head knowlege but your heart may never have been into it. Now, I do believe that once saved always saved. I read about a man who was saved, he was a preacher. However, after a trauma or crisis in faith he turned his back on God. He said he could not believe in a God who allowed others to suffer. Do I think he will be in heaven? Yes...if he was truly saved. yet, his expression of turning from God was not like yours. He expressed in a book that he missed Jesus but did not believe in God. YOu see he was angry with God and turned his back on God but did not stop believing. Can you be saved and then stop believing in God? Honestly, I don't know. I wouldn't think so....I would think that a part of you may have turned away but there was still a part that craved the Word. Very interesting question though....Can one be truly saved and then stop believing? I will try to find an answer.
If my child decides someday to disown me, turn their back on all I taught them, they would still be my child. God is the judge about people's salvation. No one ever would have guessed Lot to a righteous man. How about the time in King David's life when he was staying home from wars and committed adultry? To some then he wouldn't have been a man after God's heart. Then on the other side, Judas followed Christ and listened to Him, watched and saw miracles, and he wasn't one of the sheep.
This is a great conversation. Patti and Ava have shared the scriptures that I would have chosen. I also believe "once saved, always saved". As with your situation Crystal, I'd have to agree with Ava that you were never saved. For one who truly accepts Christ as their Savior, there is a complete change of heart- even without church classes, blessings, and baptism (which don't save anyone). I don't think that those who are truly His children will completely turn our backs on Him. Will we stray? Certainly, but for those who truly belong to God, there will always be a longing to return to His will.
Here we go: 2 Peter 1: [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5347843 Here is a link to the whole chapter so you can have the context of the verse if you'd like. Wasn't sure if I should have copied and pasted most of it. It speaks of aadding to your faith and if one doesn't add then he lacketh these things as stated above.
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. Some will be ashamed... I have heard once that this is connected with the wiping away of tears, crying people for the shame of how we lived since salvation. For some they will be saved only as by fire...I need to find that verse. Do you know of, or have you been taught about the judgement seat of Christ? That is proabably another thread...
Perhaps some of the confusion comes from the word "believe". It is quite possible to "believe" in God, "believe" that Christ came to die for our sins, without actually accepting that gift and being "saved". Satan and his demons "believe" that God is real, "believe" his Son came to earth, but that does not mean they are saved. Unless you actually repent of your sins and accept Christ's death as your salvation, you aren't "saved". Only you can know if you truly did that. The sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) have no saving power, they are symbols of our covenant with God. If baptism alone were capable of saving us, we would not have needed Christ's death. If baptism was required for salvation it would mean that Christ lied to the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise". My answer would be that if you were truly "saved" by repenting of your sins and accepting Christ as your savior, that no, you can not lose that salvation (no matter how hard you try :love but that it is quite possible to go through all of man's motions and not truly be saved.
In the same vain as Ava, some of this is mine and some is directly from study material (I am sure you can tell which is which ) Need for Salvation Adamic sin. (Romans 5:12) In accord with divine law Adam was condemned to death when he sinned and denied God’s sovereignty. Life is a gift not a right. (Romans 6:23) Adam paid for his sin with his own death. He was given life, he chose to sin, and he died as a penalty for his sin. (Genesis 3:19) It is only because of God’s underserved kindness that we even have the short life that we do. (Job 14:1) Provision for Salvation According to God’s own righteous standards only another death could atone for our sins. (Exodus 21:23) According to this law the death would have to be of a value equal to what Adam had lost. Only the death of another perfect man could cover the transgression of mankind. Jesus, a perfect man, was “a corresponding ransom.” (1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 5:16, 17) He willingly paid the price (death) for our sins. (Isaiah 53:4, 5; John 10:17, 18; Matthew 20:28) Jesus was born without sin and remained a perfect, sinless human right up to his death. (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22) Jesus’ sacrificed perfect human life is the payment of the debt we owe for sin. What is gained by salvation?“I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed.” (John 10:28) For most, salvation will mean everlasting life on an earth restored to paradisaic perfection (God’s original purpose for mankind). (Psalm 37:10, 11; Revelation 21:3, 4) In the case of a “little flock,” however, it will mean ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:4. Benefiting from the Ransom (Obtaining Salvation) Jesus himself said that more is required than simply an emotional profession that Jesus Christ is our savior. (John 17:3) The Bible sets out conditions that must be met if we are to be saved from the effects of inherited sin: • Prime requirement - heartfelt acceptance of the shed blood of Jesus (Acts 16:31) We also need… • Works that befit repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 3:19) Jesus spoke of some who professed faith in him and even did “powerful works” in his name. But he did not recognize them. Why? Because they were “workers of lawlessness” and did not do the will of his Father. (Matthew 7:15-23) The disciple James reminds us of the need to “become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.” He also said: “You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. . . . Faith without works is dead.”—James 1:22; 2:19, 26. • Take in knowledge of God’s will and do it for the rest of our life. (John 17:3; Matthew 24:14) Remember that God will not apply Jesus’ sacrifice to unrepentant, unappreciative, willful sinners. (Rom. 6:1, 2, 12) Not Once Saved, Always Saved Notice the inspired warning of the disciple Jude. He wrote: “Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones.” (Jude 3) Why did Jude write this? Because he knew that individual Christians could still lose the ‘salvation they hold in common.’ He went on to say: “I desire to remind you . . . that Jehovah, although he saved a people [the Israelites] out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.”—Jude 5. Jude’s warning would be pointless if Christians did not face a danger similar to that of those Israelites. Jude was not questioning the value of Jesus’ sacrifice. That sacrifice has saved us from Adamic sin, and Jesus will protect those who exercise faith in him. No one can snatch them out of his hand. But we can lose that protection. How? By doing what was done by many Israelites who were saved from Egypt. We can deliberately choose to disobey God.—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20. Imagine being rescued from a burning tower. Think of the relief you would feel as you were safely taken from the building and the rescuer said: “You are safe now.” Yes, you would have been saved from certain death. But what would happen if you decided to go back into the building for some foolish reason? Your life would again be in danger. Christians are in a saved condition. They have the prospect of everlasting life because they are in an approved position before God. As a group, their salvation from Adamic sin and all its consequences is sure. But individually they will be saved to eternal life only if they continue to adhere to all of God’s requirements. Jesus emphasized this when he likened himself to a vine and his disciples to branches in that vine. He said: “Every branch in me not bearing fruit [God] takes away . . . If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned.” (John 15:2, 6; Hebrews 6:4-6) Those losing faith in Jesus also lose everlasting life. Now that I have said all this, I will go back and take a closer look at some of the other comments and scriptures.
I must respectfully disagree with the salvation comes with belief only stance. We cannotearn our salvation. God does tell us ,however, in scripture what he wants from us. Mark 16:16: 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; Matthew 28:19-20 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Act 2:37-39: 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts8:11-13: 11They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. Acts 8:35-38:35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. Acts 9:17-19 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Why would Paul be baptized if he had just spent days praying and fasting? Romans 6:2-4 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Galatians 3:26-28 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If baptism isn't part of it then why is it stated that we ( we all) are baptized into Christ. Baptism in and of itself does not save. There must be belief, repentance and confession. Without those a person is just getting wet. However in James 2 we're told that even the demons believe. In Him, Lori
I do not understand. Sorry.:angel: What does believing and learning have to do with each other. I am not trying to argue, I just don't know what you mean. I think what we are talking about is going to differ because it sounds like we are using the word believe differently. The Word says I must believe. Because I believe in my Savior, His death on the cross, His resurrection, and His mercy, I am saved. Because I believe in His power, I find peace. Because I believe He died for my sins, I have salvation. Because I believe he is my Savior and master, I choose to obey His Word. In order to obey His word, I must learn and live by the Word because I believe. The demons believe but He isn't their savior but they know He is the Savior.
My pastor, family and friends at that time can only know that I was saved. You can't make that judgement , just because I was able to turn away from God and Jesus fully without looking back doesn't mean that I wasn't saved. I'm not saying just because you are baptized you are saved. I'm saying that was part of it, we accepted Christ , then we were washed of our previous sins to start anew. Classes are very important, we (our church) put us through these to make sure we fully understand what Jesus went through for us, what other people had to endure, what salvation was and to accept Christ in our hearts. I was crying and shaking when I was baptized because I knew it was a new life for me and I welcomed it. Church was all I had even known and then after 14 I began questioning it because my parents ( mostly my dad) decided that we no longer needed to go to church ( my mother obeyed) , then we didn't need to read the bible everyday ( again my mother obeyed) then I went to public school , began to take some different classes I never heard of , hung out with different people and before you know it I just started questioning everything. It wasn't instantly , it took years.
