Ok I should be asleep, but I had to read this whole thread once I started. I am amazed and very proud of you ladies. This could have turned nasty pretty quickly. I am too amazed at the knowledge that is shared here, it showed me I am getting a little rusty on my studing of the word. Ok here are my two cents 1st I believe OSAS but... That salvation in most of America's terms is not the salvation of the bible. I think that there is more to the believe part of John 3:16 then most churches or people convey to others. How many people id themselves as Christians only because their parents are, or they don't believe in something else like buda? This is the concordance with the word believe from John 3:16 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4100&t=KJV There is more then just a simple I believe there. I know from my personal salvation that I was told I was a christian and saved at a young age because i said a prayer and went through some classe. But I know as an adult the exact moment when I was truely saved, not just rededicated. At that moment there was a huge change in my heart, my attitude, my actions etc. The change was visiable to others who knew me the next day. ( I asked for forgivness at home alone) There was very definite change in me. Yes I still sinned, and I actually did some really stupid things right after that but I knew and felt guilty where as before I never had guilt in doing the same "fun" things just days before. Before that moment I was not saved, even though I had said a prayer of salvation, and all of the "religous" requirements. I told people I was a christian, went to church etc. So my stance is that yes we are OSAS (based on verses already sited), but that the true salvation is not what is being preached in the Churches. There is more to the believing part. I am not sure how to really put that into words. But it is more then just knowing there is a God, or even the God. Which I think Ava was trying to point out earlier. ( right?) Once you have that true, life altering salvation then you will always be saved, because you will not then be able to (or want to I don't want to imply the loss of free will) turn away from God. matt 7 2. I believe (for all the verses posted) that works are a result of salvation. That due to the indwelling of the HS we do works. If you do not produce good fruit you were/are not saved to begin with. This is also not the only sign of salvation, since there are people who are very good people yet deny Christ and are going to Hell. Ready for a little Calvanist?...hehe John Macauthor has a sermon where he talks about this subject. He speaks alot about how there are groups of people who only want to speak of grace (ie romans) then there are people who only read james and works. He says we have to read them both because they both fit. I think it was Luther who wanted to take James out of the bible because it gave him such fits. I am looking for the link it is a great sermon. This isn't the exact one I was looking for, but I think it is similar http://www.gty.org/Resources/issues/537 It helped to clear up alot of the miss understandings I had. Kind of like where there were two things that I felt I needed to believe (james 2 matt 6) but I couldn't fit them together right. Like putting together a puzzle without the picture on the box. John drew the picture for me. As a last note here is a JM's sermon on the branches and the vine. I think it fits well with my other points. (hehe I am so good...lol... ) http://www.gty.org/Resources/positions/2244 Now forgive me for rambleing, misspellings, and things that don't have a full thought. It is `1:30 am I have been up since 4 am and i am tired but I just had to post :lol:
Ok, I think we all agree that Jesus is our means of salvation. I think the questions that remain are: Is salvation instantaneous? In other words, are we saved from the moment we profess faith in Jesus’ sacrifice? Can one lose salvation? Correct me if I am wrong…Any other questions still unanswered?
Good idea, SeekTruth! May I amend this to read: "Are we saved forever from the moment we profess faith in Jesus' sacrifice? Can one lose salvation?" (The "profess faith" phrase has received some debate already. Let's see if we can find a word that expresses the condition of true, saving faith and put that in there, if you don't mind.) Are we in agreement that Jesus did all the works necessary to gain righteousness for us and that Salvation is a free gift? And are we also in agreement that good works flow from our love-relationship with God, like good fruit on a branch? (I can't resists pointing out that the fruit doesn't get cut off in our previous illustration--the branches do. *smiling* 'Sorry Ava Rose!) Patty, you did a lot of research on the latter question. I just read your posts, and I do believe we're "on the same page" there. Now, I need to go back and check on Aggie's links.
OK! Here ya go, Ava! You will like this. I copied it from one of Aggie's links and emboldened the phrase in question, according to this source: "Not necessarily. Other passages in Scripture show it is possible to be attached to the Vine without being a true believer. For example, Romans 9:6 says, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." A person can be part of the nation of Israel yet not be a true Israelite. Likewise, one can be a branch without abiding in the true Vine. In a similar metaphor, Romans 11:17-24 represents Israel as an olive tree from which God has removed branches. Those branches were cut off because of unbelief (Romans 11:20)." Thank you so much, Aggie! That comes the closest of anything I have ever seen how some people can read this passage and still believe in OSAS.
Aggie....picture me standing up, clapping, and nodding my head in total agreement! lol. Amen! SeekTruth...way to cut down the clutter..great idea! I do think we are all in agreement on the points mentioned in both Prairie's and SeekTruth's posts with the exception of can salvation be lost...etc....the questions mentioned. Ok..well if the branches that were cut off had no fruit it is because they did not produce fruit. You can "judge" a person's salvation by the fruit. If no fruit than the branch is not representative of a saved individual but one who never accepted. Therefore the branch is cut off and thrown in the fire. God is the creator of all so all would be on his vine and only those who accept would produce fruit. So.....(lol)
It is kind of funny this morning the link was still open and I was reading that same passage (thanks Prairie ) and thought wow that makes it alot clearer to me. OT...I am amazed at how when you pick the bible apart you can come up with completely different meanings for verses as opposed to when you read the thing as a whole (the different parts, and things like Ava pointed out earlier) using all of the parts to decifer what is being said. Profess is a difficult word. But if you mean profess as you commit to trust then No you cannot loose your salvation. Yes yes yes. Another question that I kind of wonder about is the ability of free will to walk away from Christ and deny him after the true salvation. I do not think that we can because the change in your heart will not allow it, even though we have free will to choose to do so if we please. I do not have any verses to back that up just my feelings.
Hey Prairie, we posted at the same time with the same point! I prayed about this last night so I suppose that's why..LOL.
So, forgive me that my answers are long. Are we saved forever form the moment we profess faith in Jesus? Ok, I believe that the scriptures do not indicate this. On the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. the apostle Peter concluded at the end of his discourse: “Know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.” (Acts 2:36) Both the Jews and proselytes that were listening were “stabbed to the heart” and wanted to know what they must do. They already worshiped God, accepted the Scriptures and believed in the holy spirit. Peter told them to “get saved” from that crooked generation they had to accept Jesus as the Messiah, the one about whom Peter not long afterward said: “There is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (Acts 2:38-40; 4:12) Similarly, after teaching in Philippi about “the way of salvation,” it was appropriate for Paul to tell the jailer to believe in Jesus so as to get saved.—Acts 16:12, 17, 31. However, it is important to note that in both instances the apostles showed that more was required than simply ‘believing in Jesus.’ Peter said that in addition to having faith in Jesus believers had to repent, be baptized and seek forgiveness of sins on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice. (Acts 2:38) And Paul first “spoke the word of Jehovah” to the Philippian jailer and his family, after which they were baptized. (Acts 16:32, 33) Far more is required than simply saying “I believe in Jesus” or “I accept Jesus as my Savior.” Certainly accepting and exercising faith in Jesus as our ransomer is necessary. But the salvation through him comes only to those who conform to the conditions on which it is offered. A person must know of and have faith in God, accept his Word, recognize the operation of his spirit, repent and be baptized.—Heb. 11:6; Matt. 28:19; Acts 3:18. When once a person has met these conditions, salvation is possible. Then to the question “Are you saved?” he can give the truthful reply, “Yes, thus far I am saved.” ‘But,’ someone may ask, ‘why do you say “thus far”? Were not the early Christians sure that they already were saved?’ In a sense, yes, for they met the conditions for being forgiven and saved from their sins. We read: “By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved,” and “according to his mercy he saved us through the bath that brought us to life.”—Eph. 2:8; Titus 3:5. Yet, the early Christians knew that they had not been completely saved for all time. Having accepted Jesus, God’s means of salvation, they had to continue in the way of salvation. That is why they were told: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling,” and, “Now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers.” (Phil. 2:12; Rom. 13:11) They had yet to make their salvation sure for all eternity by enduring in the way of salvation.—Matt. 10:22; Rev. 2:10. Thus, once we are in the way of salvation, we must exert ourselves to stay in it. You cannot earn salvation by works; faith is what is needed. (Rom. 3:10-12; Gal. 3:11) But you do need to exercise your faith by practical works that give proof of it. (Jas. 2:14-17, 26) That is what the apostles did. They especially gave emphasis to the preaching work that Jesus commanded be done by Christians. They realized, as we must, that rather than merely giving salvation to anyone who says he has accepted Him, Jesus “became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.”—Heb. 5:9. (Disclaimer – most of this is from my study material. I just couldn’t say it any better) Can we lose salvation? Yes. The scriptures indicate that we can in a number of places. Paul makes it clear that even partakers of the Holy Spirit can fall Hebrews 6:4-6 – “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” 1 Corinthians 9:27 – “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” Salvation is not instantaneous. We must work energetically to attain salvation. Philippians 2:12 – “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 3:12-14 – “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 4:10 – “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” Luke 13:23, 24 - “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” Those who turn their back are worse off than before. 2 Peter 2:20, 21 – “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” .
Let's not forget the context of this metaphor. Jesus is not talking to everyone. He is talking specifically to his disciples during the last supper. Just as branches of a literal vine get their strength from the main trunk, so Christ’s disciples must remain in union with him. Just as a farmer would cultivate the vine for fruit, God expects his people to bear spiritual fruit. This brings glory to God. (John 15:8) Jesus’ illustration of the true vine reminds us that salvation depends on our remaining in union with Christ and producing good spiritual fruitage. Jesus said: “If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.”—John 15:10.
I think that is a common theme on this thread. Acts 2:36-38: Honestly, I am not seeing how this supports your position or contridicts my own. I maybe missing something. Acts 4:12: This verse simply states that salvation for jew or gentile is exclusively through the name of Jesus Christ and will forever be so. Acts 16:16-18 16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brough her maters much gain by sooth saying: 17 The same follwed Paul and us, and cried, saying, Tehse men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul being grieved (greatly annoyed), turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. The "way of salvation" was spoken by a woman possessed by a demon. She is the one who coined that term. Here is what a texts says on this passage: The strange words of the demon-possessed girl that Paul is proclaiming the way of salvation reveal Satan's insidious attack upon the work of God. His method to counterfeit that which is genuine thereby confusing and corrupting it (Luke 4:41, 2Cor. 11:13-15) I think you would agree we cannot get doctrine or the our belief of salvation out of the mouth of a demon. It is clearly seen how the devil is trying to make salvation a process and not a gift. A process indicates works and earnings....like a dipolma. Not true. Salvation is instaneous but santification is the process. One can't get saved if he does not believe Jesus to be the savior of sin. YOu don't get saved and then understand this fact. The conditions are only to believe Christ died on the cross for your sins and that his blood covers your sin. The bible states that Jesus came while we were yet in our sin. One does not have to get cleaned up before obtaining salvation. One can't get clean apart from salvation. Heb 11:6 is written to the saved not the unsaved. A saved person must have faith in God and seek Him. This is not the "way of salvation" but santification and living a Christian life. Acts 3:18...not seeing how this applies to the stance mentioned. Matt. 28:19 is the last order Jesus gives his disciples before leaving them. It tells us we are to spread the word. It does mention baptism. However, baptism is NOT essential to salvation. One can be saved and go to heaven without ever being baptized....the thief on the cross for instance. Baptism is an act one must do before entering into the service of Christ or beginnin a ministry as Jesus was baptized before beginning his ministry. Jesus did not need to be saved. Baptism comes AFTER salvation. It is a outward expression of an inward change. No doubt important...but it is an act after salvation. A person who desires in his heart to have Christ as his savior and trips and dies on his way to the baptismal does not go to hell. I think Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5 support my point of view. lol. Both verses stress that works cannot get you into heaven. Titus speaks of regeneration...the Holy Spirit who works in you after you are saved. Regeneration replaces the old nature with new and is an act of God. Phil 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "Work out" is an expression or actualization of something one already has...it is a Greek phrase and needs to be understood in proper context. The Philippians are to "work out" what God has already given them. Salvation was not simply for their own profit but for others as well. They are to express their new lives in Christ to be an example to others and to add to the kingdom. Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that is not it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Sleep: refers to insensitivity a Christian life. Salvation nearer...: refers to the coming of Christ. I don't see how this is a supporting verse either. Bascially any verse that is seen in the light of "way of salvation" is seen in a flawed light. Why? Because the term was coined by a demon possessed girl who was trying to deceive and corrupt the Word and the work of Paul. Hebrews 6:4-6 I have already addressed this verse so I won't bore you with rewriting it all over again. 1 Corinthians 9:27 – “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” Paul is not fearful of loosing his salvation. He is speaking of Christian liberty from verses 1Cor. 9:19-27. His point is that one must maintain a proper testimony in the light of liberty as to not disqualify himself from ministry. Philippians 3:12-14 – “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” Paul is speaking of fully knowing Jesus not the process of salvation. He is also saying that he claims not to be perfect as some in his day claimed. He admits to the sin in his life. The mark he speaks of is the objective of the preceding verses 10,11. The prize is not entry into heaven but the personal joy of salvation. He is striving for salvation, he is striving to live a life consecrated to God. He is trying to live a santified life. In chapter 2, of 2 Peter, he is speaking about false prophets and teachers. He is talking about those who profess salvation but find themselves entangled in the world. A false teachers latter profession is worse than their beginning one because now their lives deny their profession of Christ. So, they are worldly corrupt teachers who no longer live in a way that glorfies God. They are teaching liberty but put themselves back into the bondage of sin. Since we already know that sin does not cause you to loose salvation I don't see any evidence that this verse blows apart my point of view. Love to you all :love: as I am not going to reread this to make sure I didn't sound like a jerk. lol.
I must say, you ladies are making me think!:lol: That is a good thing! I am going to take this scripture seperate from the other scripture that was posted. This way I do not scramble my brain more than it already is.LOL Exodus 32: 25-35 25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him. In these first two scriptures, Moses sees the people lack control and are clearly sinning against the Lord. Yet Moses still says, "Whoever is for the Lord, come with me" So clearly, they were still considered people who were for the Lord, even though they were falling into sin. So clearly, the Lord had not cast them out. 27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." I find these verses interesting. But what grabs me most is verse 29. By doing what Moses commanded, the Levites were SET APART. They were BLESSED but they weren't blotted out. Again, we see the shedding of blood. This time it is the blood of those who didn't turn away from the worshipping of idols. I believe those who turned away from their sinful nature, at this time, did so because they were true followers of the LORD. Those who didn't, weren't. 30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." Some might say that the Levites' atonement came from killing those who weren't for the Lord. But this can't be the case or else Moses wouldn't have made the trip up to see if he could make atonement for their sins. So I am under the impression, the sins weren't yet atoned for and yet in verse 29, before Moses attempted to make atonement for their sins, they are already declared set apart and blessed. 31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." Moses, who was the leader of God's people, was willing to give up his salvation for these people. He was willing to be a sacrific in their place. 33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." 35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made. What the Lord said to Moses was a response to Moses asking to be blotted out in place of the Levites or sinners. Yet, interestingly enough, although God is more than capable to blot them from the book, according to the verses that follow verse 33, we do not see the people blotted out. What we see is people who are being led to the place the Lord spoke of and not only were they led to a place that the Lord spoke of, the Lord was gracious enough to send an angel before them. Then according to the last part of verse 34, the Lord says, " However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." Again, He says they will be punished, but not blotted. WOW!!! Again, merciful Father! ...and we can see that in verse 35 the people were struck with a pleague because of what they did with the calf.
Hi Ladies. I feel that I have made my point with scripture so I am going to back off now. I am beginning to sense some hostility (although I am sure it is not intentional:love and feel that this is quickly going south. Not to mention I am getting a headache trying to remember what in the world we are talking about!!! At least we all agree that it is by means of Jesus shed blood that we even have an opportunity for salvation. I guess until the day comes we can never truly know we are saved. I like this scripture so I thought I would share… “Keep on asking , and it will be given you, keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.” Matthew 7:7 ...I think of it often when I study the Bible.
I am sorry you sense hostility. I personally haven't noticed any of that, but this is just me.:angel: Thanks for taking part. I enjoy reading what you have posted even though we do not agree on all things.
Yeah, SeekTruth...you are wise. Often when things of this nature are drawn out for too long things go South. Even unintentional tension can stir things up. I haven't noticed any I sure hope I was not part of any. I have a tendency to word things strongly which is why I tried adding smiles and stuff. You may have sensed a bit of hostility because you were the most outspoken of your camp and one of the few who responded...ya know? I mean sometimes we feel a bit picked on when it is our posts that are always getting copy and pasted so other can refute it...lol. Which again is why I apologized for using your posts but you had some really good ones! I do think we all agree on the important issues I am know we will all see each other on the other side of eternity! Like I said, we may be in different camps on certain things but we are ALL in the SAME campground. I know I learned alot and very happy we discussed this. This has prompted me to study the Word more indepthly also so good has come of it. I am sure Amy will be glad she doesn't have to close this discussion out. lol.
Well, Patty, SeekTruth, Ava Rose, Aggie, and all others, this has been great! Patty, I'm not finished studying all the research and writing which you did and haven't finished reading all of the links which Aggie gave us. Never-the-less, I can tell you already that "your team" did a mighty fine job of trying to help me see the logic in your position! And I've enjoyed asking questions of you-all along with SeekTruth. You might be interested to know that I took this conversation to our family. We had an interesting talk last night, and we may be using some of these explanations in our family times in the future. Most of us believe that once we have committed our lives to Christ, He maintains our Salvation, unaided by anything we do; but that He would allow us to change our minds... If we'd want to... I think.... !!! *wink* THANKS, GALS!!! Again, this was great!!!
I'm still studying this also. I loved it! I am off to study if one has the freewill to be unsaved once saved. Very interesting and not a point of view I had heard before. As I said, the point of view I heard was that one looses salvation based on works or sin. So, ladies what's the next discussion! lol. It doesn't have to be a counterversial one...it can be simply us studying out the word. We can even take a book...like Esther...*wink*..one of my favorites and explore it together. Or better yet a book we aren't familar with and learn together! I love delving into the word.
I was hoping someone would ask!! :angel: You pick this time Ava. I am up for any book (perhaps a small one first ) or a less conterversial subjut (at least this time :lol
