True. I was just saying that people say I wasn't truly saved so my point that once saved , always saved ( my being that it isn't true) was moot.
Seeing it like Crystal does from out here on the prairie: No one else and nothing else can take away our salvation. Even sin and rebellion on its own doesn't end it. But salvation is a relationship, and just like a baby is born into this life and can die, so can a person's relationship with Jesus Christ die. Hebrews 6 talks of those who were once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift and who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, having repented and taken for themselves the crucifixion of the Lord, and then they fell away. It says that it is impossible for those to be renewed unto salvation, and yet, in another place, the Word says that "With God ALL things are possible!" With Him, even "impossible things are possible!" It's not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by his mercy He saved us. (Titus 3:5) Yes, He did it all, and then we appropriated it by faith through our free will. And we are secure in Him as long as we want to be. In that sense, I totally believe in "eternal security." As much as I would like to keep "the law," I continually fall short. However, no sin or failing of mine or lack of performance of good works will ever remove me from Him. Only I can remove myself by an act of the will. And, like Crystal's experience indicates, that would seem to take time. I've been down that route quite a ways, myself. In college I was attracted by existentialism and other philosophies, and my once very real and vibrant faith started to grow cold. I was in the process of relegating Biblical doctrines into the "upper story" realm (also called the irrational leap-of-faith realm). Relativism--that is each person having their own unique "truth"--fit in with that type of thinking. Even the hope of my own future resurrection dimmed. "The love of many shall wax cold." That's talking about true love--a relationship. It can wax cold. It can die. But it can also be resurrected! (At least that's how I understand those verses. 'Sorry if I sound like a "know-it-all!")
Loreal and SeekTruth, I want to address what you brought up also--good works. They are accompanying evidence of Salvation, but nothing can be added to the finished "work" which Christ did on the Cross. It's a "free" (but very costly!) gift.
There is a verse in the Bible that talks about once saved people turning away from God, and that they will someday always come back to the Lord. Not sure what "some day" means, like at death, or sometime during our lives? Anyone want to find it? I'm horrible at looking things up, and I just got home from work so I am BEAT right now. I know it's there, just not sure where to look. Good night...I'll be catching up on this one tomorrow.
That's not what I said. God said to do it so I did. I don't want to debate- scripture speakls for itself. There are plenty of examples inthe Bible of people who have been baptized because they understood what they needed to do- Paul, Ethiopean Eunuch, Cornelius, the jailer, even Jesus set the example.
Crystal, I am sorry if I offended you by saying you may never have been saved. It seems I am not communicating my point effectively in this area. Better said, I have known several people who came to the conculsion that they were not saved after making the profession. It does happen. I have NO idea nor should I persume your state of salvation. I pray you are saved since as I believe you will still enter into the kingdom of heaven regardless of your turning away. I just think for some of us, myself included, it is hard to understand being saved and then turning your back entirely on this belief. Obviously you are an example. The only one who knows if you are truly saved is Christ. Again, I apologize if I sounded like I was twisting your experiences or making presumptions about anything I have no right to so.
I also apologize, Crystal. My opinion comes from my belief that you cannot lose your salvation, but Ava is right, only God knows the status of your salvation. It's between you and Him. My intent was not to hurt feelings!
My apologies for another long post. I copied and pasted to make it easier for me to respond..please don't feel I did so to point SeekTruth out. lol. Matthew 3:8---In verse 8, John rebukes the Pharisees by asking them to give evidence of "fruits meet for repentence". Real repentence proves itself by the fruit of a changed life. The change life precedes the fruit. If not fruit grows then salvation must not have occured in the first place. *NOTE: The book of Matthew is written while Jesus is still alive and trying to bring his kingdom to the Jews. This book is NOT in the age of grace...but occurs in the dispensation before Jesus was the sacrifice for sin. This book does NOT apply to doctrine concerning salvation. Acts 3:19: I don't see how this verse supports your claim. This verse speaks of repentence. Repentence is not a work. And again, the part of Acts written by Peter is for the Jews and not the Gentiles. Yes, all scripture can be applied in one way or another but some is not written to US but to the Jews or the Millineal (sp..I am such a dork) Jews. Not for us...so we cannot get doctrine out of it. Matthew 7:15-23: The first part is speaking of false prophets not about loosing salvation. The rest speaks of the difference of those who are genuinely saved and those who are not. Jesus says that not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven...the ones who will not are ones who are not saved. Those continually living in obedience to the Lord as a normal course of life are those saved...but in the course they can still sin and salvation still applies. In Matthew 7:18: It states that a good tree cannot produce evil fruit or the opposite. That simple. Either you are saved or you are not. Again, you are getting doctrine out of a book that is not for us to use as doctrine. We are not in the dispensation. We are in the dispensation of grace which occurs after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Matthew was written by a jew for the jews. If you look at the first verse in each book it will tell you to whom the book is written. In the beginning of Matthew it says: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." Matthew 1:1 Written to those still under the law. That isn't us. The book of James James 1:1---JAMES, a servant of God and Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. He is writting this book to the twelve tribes....the Jews. It is said that this book is the most Jewish of the New Testament because it contains very little that is Christian. Doctrine about redemption through Christ or the resurrection are not to be found. This is more like the Sermon on the Mount. James does speak of faith and works quite a bit. However, they are not conflicting terms but complementary. Remember he is speaking to the Jews and the Jews would have understood the idea of works. James is saying that faith proves true by how it manifests in your life NOT by earning it. Genuine faith shows fruit. Much the same as genuine love shows even if the one we love does nothing to deserve it. James is speaking of faith that works. The book of Jude The book of Jude is written to warn Christians of false teachings that have infiltrated Christian teachings. Think of the emerging church that we experience today. Many of that time are being misled by false teachings. Jude is trying to warn Christians of these teachings and urges them to stand firm on their faith. We see this today with doctrine being diluted by new age or emerging church teachings. Jude is not warning of a loss of salvation. The Vine and the Branches John 15/ This is an analogy for the relationship of Jesus and his believers. Jesus is the vine, disciples are the branches and God is the gardener. In verse 2, Taketh awaydoes not refer to a loss of salvation but the bearing of fruit. Also see Gal. 5:22-26. Hebrews 6:4-6 This is not about the loss of salvation. This is a hypothetical situation the author is using to make a point. The writer does not nor does the audience believe a loss of salvation can occur. How do we know this? Verse 9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation though we thus speak. Verses 18-19 confirm that the author and the audience believe in eternal security and highlight the security we have in Christ. Verse 18 speaks of two immutable things...things that cannot change. One being that God cannot lie and two being that we have refuge in God...once saved always saved. Ephesians 2:8: says that we are saved...the greek perfect tense would be translated to say "you are saved and stand saved". As I was writing I feel I took on "teacher mode". I SO sorry if my tone sounds like anything other than me discussing (not arguing) the precious Word.
Okay..I do have some questions for those who believe salvation can be lost. 1) How do you know when you have lost your salvation? 2) What does it take to loose your salvation? 3) If salvation is lost by sin then what sin is great enough to cause me to loose my salvation? Isn't that like saying Jesus's sacrifice was not good enough to cover all sin?
Hmm... I also believe the Bible teaches baptism. And I also was merely putting into words what I believe. No offense intended toward anyone, and I apologize if my words sounded abrasive. BTW, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts, Ava Rose, and those who agree with you. Though you are 100% convinced by the verses you quote, and I understand how you interpret them the way you and others do; and though I presented another view, I am not at all offended, nor do I consider this an argument. Far from it! I love examining things deeply and probing each other's reasoning. There were still some unanswered questions remaining, I believe from Patty, and if anyone cares to delve further, it would be OK with me, but my intent would not be of course, to put anyone down.
Hey, Prairie...so you believe our salvation is secure but if we decide to turn away than our salvation is lost? Just trying to see if I am understanding you correctly. (I don't think I have to say that I love ya and respect you greatly so you know my question is simply a question.)
Ava, it is not sin, alone, which keeps any one out of heaven, because Jesus took ALL the sins of the world upon Hismself on the Cross. The thing that would keep someone out would be not appropriating the forgiveness which He now offers us. Similarly, no sin, per se, will make a person lose their Salvation--only the turning of one's back upon the Cross, which they once embraced. This could be evidenced by hardness of heart, rebellion, love waxing cold and dying--any one of a number of things. Wasn't King Saul once annointed with the Holy Spirit and then turned his back? And, in turn, how do you interpret the verses on the other side of your belief? (Branches being cut off, those who have once tasted, etc.) I love you, too, and hope we can always talk things through in joyful learning!
I agree with this. Two verses come to me.... II Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them". If we are always saved no matter what we do then why would it be worse for them? The other is Rev. 2:4-5 "Nevertheless I have somethat against thee, becasue thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come into thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." I think that where I disagree with the OSAS belief is that I believe that when we are saved the blood of Jesus is applied and all our past sins are forgiven. Right then we are spotless, but I don't believe that all our future sins are forgiven at that point. When we sin we must repent and have the blood applied to that sin. As the verse in Rev. says 'do our first works'. Another verse I found when I was looking for those is II Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" We know that no sin can enter in to heaven. If all our future sins are forgiven when we are first saved then why must we be diligent? There are more verses along those same lines, I'm trying to eat breakfast while I write this so I'm not going to find them now but I will if anyone wants me to. I don't live in fear of losing my salvation. When I sin the Holy Ghost convicts me of it and I'm able to repent. I will give you this much ..... I've wondered myself about where the line is drawn. Since no sin can enter in, if you live your whole life blameless and then right before you die you sin and don't repent..... say you fight with your spouse, say things you shouldn't, storm out and die in a car wreck.... does that mean you're lost? One of these days I'll pose that one to my pastor!
Hope I'm not contradicting myself but I agree with this, you say things so much better than I do! And I think maybe you've answered my question!
Okay...I understand better your side. So, you are not saying a sin is strong enough to loose your salvation but turning away from the Lord is the deciding factor. So, one knows she lost her salvation becauce she is the one who denounces it. It is not the amount of sin but a decision to turn away much like the decision to turn toward Christ. In Matthew it does speak of the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and says it is the only unpardonable sin. This refers to the deliberate rejection of Chirst. This puts someone beyond the opportunity of salvation by is very nature. Yet, that is the rejection of the gift of salvation not giving up salvation. Or do you say that one can reject and loose salvation after one receives it and this is not referring to turning down the gift? Ok...I cannot find the branches being cut off... like me look it up again. lol. I thought I addressed these verses and those verses on the other side of my belief??? Maybe not entirely. Let me find the verse....
Glad you brought this up! I tend to believe that a true Christian; one who has their name written in the Book of Life can't commit the unpardonable sin. Mainly because God isn't going to erase a persons name from this book. I know this can be debated as well.
I find all this very interesting, being of a different religion entirely where our salvation depends on something very different. But I was raised Catholic. Thanks to everyone for helping to clarify something I never understood.
No apologies needed ladies! Sorry if my post came across as angry, because I'm not. I think maybe you guys probably can't understand why someone who was saved would turn their back on God, therefore , maybe, you were saying I wasn't saved in the first place? So I can see your point about me ,maybe, never being saved. I do know some people who claim they are saved but if you have seen their actions I would have to say no they were never saved.
