1.) When I knew without a shadow of a doubt , that I would not ever go back to being a Christian or follow any religion. 2.) For me, it was when I couldn't believe the stories in the bible anymore. That they happened the way they said. That we got here because someone said the words, that people could walk on water, feed thousands from little, rise from the dead, etc, etc. Too many questions not enough faith to believe in them anymore. Too many different religions that not one religion had to be right. That is why I'm agnostic, I believe that all religions have the right to be around, equal, but not one religion is right, because I can't prove or disagrove it . My dh is atheist, doesn't believe God(s) could exist. He was brought up in an ultra-religious house, but he began questioning the existence of God from an early age and no one could answer his questions properly. 3.) I don't know if any sin could make you lose your salvation, even convicted killers repent before their death. I think you lose your salvation when you lose your faith or ability to believe that what the bible says is true. That you no long believe in God or Jesus, all of it, and never look back.
See, I agree with this. It's what I always thought as well. (and you know if I think it, it's truth! LOL )
I don't know if debate is the right word, but I do disagree that a name can be wiped out. "But now if you will pardon their sin,—and if not, wipe me out, please, from your book that you have written.” However, Jehovah said to Moses: “Whoever has sinned against me, I shall wipe him out of my book." Ex 32:32,*33 "He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels." Re 3:5
Geesh, I feel bad always copying and pasting your posts, SeekTruth! LOL. It really makes it easier to respond to you and share with others. I promise you it is not to point you out or try to pick with you. Just making sure it doesn't appear that way since we are on opposite camps here...opposite camps but the same campground in eternity! LOL. :love: Ok...I see now what you are saying. So, we are agreed on just about everything as far as not earning salvation, all sins are forgiven, Jesus died and rose again to cover sin and His sacrifice was enough to cover all sin. So, what this boils down to is: If you choose to turn away or continue to sin can you give up or loose your salvation? At least I think that is the real question. I am so happy for the responses though...I thought those who believed in a loss of salvation believed that based on how many sins they commit or something like that. I have a much better understanding now. Okay...Well, I cannot say if someone who professes faith in Christ is saved or not. I do think it is possible that someone who says they believe in God is not saved. I also think that someone can sin after salvation and not loose his salvation. If there is no change of heart then there is no salvation to begin with. So, if you say the sinner's prayer and then continue on with a sinful life with NO regrets and see no reason to repent than you are most likely not saved. However, without a new life to cling to many saved individuals fall back into a life of sin...yet I believe they are saved. So, in essence, I am saying that if someone is saved...truly saved....he cannot pluck himself out of the hand of God no matter how hard he tries. That is my belief. I now totally understand why others feel different after being better enlightened by those who responded. Yet, I still feel the same...not saying any of you were trying to convince me otherwise. Now, it is I who failed to communicate effectively. 2Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I am not attempting to contridict or violate this verse. Yes, all scripture is profitable. When reading a passage there are many things we can learn. You can ask yourself about what God wants you to learn, how to address your sin, etc. However things need to be understood in the light of 2 Timothy 2:15: Study to show theyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. When studying the Bible we have to consider the proper context of the passage. To understand things correctly we must understand that scripture was written to three types of people--Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God. The bible has proper divisions or dispensations which need to be considered to understand the message. All scripture has 3 basic applications: historical, doctrinal, and inspirational. Every word and event in the bible are there for a specific purpose. The bible's easiest dispensation to understand is the Old and New Testament. The old is a picture of the new and we can learn much about history and inspiration through the Old Testament. However, we are not in the dispensation of the Law. Basic divisions are before the Law (Abraham), the Law (Moses) and after the law which would be after the resurrection or see in Paul's writings. God is unchanging but how he deals with man does change. For example, we no longer sacrifice animals to cover our sins. If there were no divisions then we would be sacrificing lambs at an alter. This is not my originial illustration but modeled after one I have heard to explain divisions in the bible. My uncle writes me a letter filled with sage advice and convicting memoirs. He speaks of his life and of the lessons he has learned. He tells of the time period and how things are done during his time. He also ends it with a promise of inheritance. I allow you to read this letter. From reading it you gain a sense of history and inspiration. You follow some of his advice for your betterment. However, do you now claim the inheritance because you simply read it? It was not written specifically to you but you can benefit from it...but you cannot obtain the promise or inheritance. You see, some of the bible is written to the Jews. Some was written before the law, during the law and after the law. You cannot build doctrine off of a dispensation that you are not in or letters not written to you. Does this mean we throw it away and can't learn from it? NO, of course not. All scripture is profitable but not all is written for you to build doctrine on. I love the bible as a whole. However, one must understand the bible in the proper context and with the correct dispensation in mind. This is certainly not a tradition of man...hush your mouth! D). This is simply a way to understand the bible and how to define doctrine. We live in the church age and get our doctrine mostly from Romans. By doctrine I am saying how one gets saved and so forth. I am not saying the rest of the bible has nothing to offer. I sincerely doubt I explained myself correctly. lol. Just know that I would NEVER throw away or change any word of the bible. I'm a KJVer...to be in my club you have to be very exact with the wording, we are kinda freaks about that...LOL.
Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! (Romans 11:33) What a privilege to delve and plumb and examine these things, knowing that even throughout all of eternity, we will never be able to exhaust the treasures and never, ever be able to say that we know it all! I'm so glad for this opportunity to ask questions of those with differing understandings, partially because I have dear friends and family members who firmly believe the once-saved/always-saved doctrine, and try as hard as I can, I simply cannot see where they are coming from. (Fantastic! I just happened to glance back at the posts before submitting this one and see that the conversation is continuing; so I hope this doesn't interrupt the flow!) So, it's back to those branches, if you don't mind. Believers are the branches, right? The branches can be cut off the vine, which is Jesus Christ, right? And they are cast into the fire. I just can't read this any differently, though I'm trying. Really! Then, too, there's that Rev. 3:5 verse about not blotting a name out of the Book of Life, if that person is an overcomer. Also, another thing that bothers me about the thesis which is on the other side of the dialogue from mine, is that some of you have said you can't know for sure who is saved. It seems, then, that the once-saved doctrine would lead to doubt, fear, and insecurity. A person of that persuasion would have to say, "Either the non-believer never, ever truly believed, or he or she is still saved even though they no longer have faith nor any longer believe, or even want to be saved." If that's the case, who can truly have assurance of salvation? Yet Hebrews 10:22 says we have full assurance of faith. And John 10:4 says, "I know my sheep and am known of them." We know His voice! I see my salvation as past, present, and future. I do not fear dying without confessing every sin, because my heart is toward the Lord. I do not fear not walking sinlessly, (though I deeply, deeply desire to do so), because HE has walked sinlessly for me, and I am covered with His righteousness! Awesome thought! Jude says He will one day present me faultless before the Father--not because I walked faultlessly or even totally got all my sins confessed, but because I am walking under the Blood-soaked garments, and God the Father sees no sin whatsoever in my life--even unconfessed ones. (In fact, it's an impossibility confess them all, because we can't fathom the extent, number, or depth of our sin. "The heart is desperately wicked. Who can know it?" Jer. 17:19.) Is the topic of "works" maybe for another thread? I don't know, but a faith in the living God will necessarily and inevitably produce good fruits. Faith produces works. In that way, they can no more be separated from each other than a mother's love for her child and her actions which show that love. Similarly, "works" are the result of salvation and flow from it, like a mother's kisses flow from her love. Kisses don't cause the love, nor do good works cause salvation; nor do I fear that any lack of good works will forfeit my standing with the Lord. It's just that, as His child, I DELIGHT to go and give and share, etc. 'Can't help it! This is WAY too long a post, and I haven't spoken to all of your questions yet. If we'd all be in the same room, we'd literally be talking at the same time in our eagerness to understand!
Oh, I know folks like that, too, but I cannot judge them. God knows their hearts. There are many people who think they are Christians simply because they believe in God, but only accepting the gift of salvation through Christ saves you.
Branches....huh....well, I thought it was speaking to about the judgement seat of Christ. Although the saved will not be condemned God does deal with your deeds. Paul speaks to this in 1Cor. 3:10-15. Rev. 3:5, is an assurance of eternal security. It states your name will not be blotted out. It is speaking of genuine believers. Assurance of salvation is in the verses that many of us have shared. When I say dthat I don't know who is saved what I am saying is that I cannot see a person's heart. If someone tells me he is saved then I believe he is unless I see he bears no good fruit. So, I suppose in that sense you can tell if someone is truly saved. However, I cannot make that judgement call over the net. We are instructed to judge a person's salvation by their fruit. Dicey, as your retort would be if there is no fruit after acceptance then he is a branch cut down. lol. I so wished I said this! Beautifully put! In fact, that is what I was trying to say when it came to faith and works. I will say I have never understood those who believe in a loss of salvation as much as I do now. I will admit, Prairie is making me consider a side I never thought about before. Oh well...the best thing about that is it does not apply to me as I know I am saved. LOL. Ok..I am getting silly...gotta go.
I love to discuss the Word, too! Everyone's contributions are so good! Thanks, Ava Rose, for listing all the verses which you did in your first post on this thread. You and others have put a lot of time in on this topic, & I've been thinking about the verses which you and Sixcloar and Emma's#1fan & others have been referring to. If anyone cares to, you can lift up more individual verses, and we can examine them further; but, except for the following ones, for now I'll just say that it's surprising to me how we can read some of same words and come to such different conclusions! Never-the-less, you are helping me to "look through the glasses" from another view, and I'll admit that I am looking carefully at imputed righteousness from your perspective. You have challenged me to articulate, to myself at least, some things about the imputation of righteousness. Once imputed, can it ever be unimputed? Or does that question itself imply a belief that imputation is a one-time thing? Is imputation indeed a permanent condition before death, or is it related to the faith relationship? I believe the imputation of righteousness may be linked to and part of the living, continual, moment-by-moment love relationship with God, which He, by the Holy Spirit living in us, continually imputes. I'm going to say more, but I'm sure you already know it & are probably better at appropriating it than I am: our relationship with God is a living thing, continually sustained by His Spirit, and all virtues and merits and graces and blessings are continually available and given to us moment-by-moment. I think I see Salvation and imputation of righteousness like that. Nothing can stop the flow from His direction. Nothing can cause the Father to see our sin while we are under the Cross. We can do much to stop it, though. Yes, I believe we can step away from the Cross. On most things, though, that you listed in your first post, I see no divergence of doctrine. Perhaps, however, to your illustration of a father and his son, who can never be "unborn," I would say that the son can reject his inheritance, though. He could also die. As long as we are resting in His hands, we are secure, very true. I am not holding my own salvation in my own hands. He's holding me. I also believe that He would give me freedom to leap out of His hands, if I insisted and persisted about that and invalidated my side of the Salvation transaction by willfully, with full knowledge of what I was doing, retracted & renounced my faith. Our relationship, like an engagement, is sealed similar to how an engagement ring "seals" a marriage. A promise has been made. The Holy Spirit has been given. Gifts have been given. But our marriage to Christ hasn't been consummated yet, and the engagement can be broken, not by the Bridegroom, though. He always keeps His promises! Absolutely no fear that He will ever reject us at this point. As long as we're on earth, we can choose. I don't read in the Word that we lose any part of our ability to choose just because we enter into a relationship with Him. But can He woo us back? Nothing is impossible with Him, and He will not take even a child's commitment lightly. He has ways of reminding us. His power and love are greater than any thing on earth, yet He does respect our will... Ephesians 2:8-9 to me, points to the opposite direction than it does to you. It says that we are saved, not of works, but THROUGH faith. By faith we appropriate the gift, which has already been bought and paid for. (No human works allowed in this part of the deal.) Just reach out and receive it. No, we didn't earn it, but we did TAKE it. In the same way, we can lose it: throw it back. Deliberately step away from the Cross. (Now, all we need is a Calvinist here, and most of us would rally forces to refute the doctrines of captivity of the will & limited atonement! *smiling* Not really, I've got to go make supper! Just let me know what you do with those branches, AvaRose!)
Can I set the branches aside for a moment or hand them off to someone else? LOL. I need to research more about someone turning away from the cross. I need to pray about that. I understand not accepting the gift but to accept and then return??? Can it be done? Yes, though our actions of course but does that cause you to loose your ties to heaven? We are sealed once saved...can we undo the seal? I am coming off of this with more questions. As I said, I thought the argument was that one's sin would cause him to loose his salvation. I also thought those who believed that also believed one had to work or earn salvation. I am happy for these points of view...it really makes me think. Let me see what I can do with those branches after more study and prayer. lol. So, any Calvinists out there? LOL. Wow, that would open up a ton of worms, huh? lol. I think we already have enough on our plate.
Oh Ava, I never feel that you are picking on me! You keep me laughing (and on my toes!). Yea, I think. Ok, I understand this and agree. (Can you believe it!) I didn't mean to lead you to think otherwise. But... (you knew it was there didn't you..) I am not sure how to respond to this yet. I need to think about it some more and do a little research.
This thread is awesome! I love the way it is getting me deeper into the Word. I have a huge spill to type up and I am trying to cut it down. Hopefully I get it posted tonight.
Oh Patty, I have been waiting for you to respond!! I need you! I am having a crisis in faith. I need another in my camp. LOL. Yeah, this thread is pretty cool and I have learned quite a bit.
you girls know your bible! wow, i just found this thread, and i cant believe you girls knew where all that scripture was at. i think that i need to be in the word more. once saved always saved? I think if it is a sincere salvation, and only God knows this, than yes you are always saved. Than being said, i believe that works are evidence that one is saved. If one is truly saved, they are going to want to follow Christ and do his will. I am one that was saved as a young child ( i thought) but then when i was in jr. high i realized that i had been going through the motions, and that i need to make a more educated committment. Now, maybe i was trully saved at 5, and just had those doubts and thought better safe than sorry, i knew God wanted more of me, and so I went forward and explained all this to my pastor. I have also rededicated my life a couple times in the last 20 years since my salvation. At times when i had fallen away from his word, and been living a livestyle that did not exemplify Christ, but somehow, God always called me home, and made me a better christian and child of God for it. Even now, sometimes i find myself falling away. Not reading my bible, going through the motions, praying without really praying. And other times i find myself hungry for His word, and trying my best in all that i do to be an example of His love and word. I guess i look at it like a father daughter relationship. i have my ups and downs with my earthly father. sometimes weve been so close and other times we barely speak for months. Once in a while i even have my doubts about being saved. I look at some of the Godly women in my church and compare myself, and feel ashamedly like a failure. i trully believe that satan puts doubts in our hearts when we might be vulnerable. do you girls ever have doubts? like your not good enough or spiritual enough or a bad example at times? i know i can never be perfect, but i also believe we are to strive to be Christlike in all that we do , say , and think.
Ava, I have six pages on Word. LOL!!!! I am trying to cut it down. I think I am going to have to take one piece at a time. I will also have to post in the morning because Handsome is already asleep. I keep stirring him with my typing. So I will post tomorrow morning. YAY!!!!!!!!! I can't wait. You gals are great! Thanks for all the great insight!
Well, we aren't good enough or spiritual enough and most likely we are a bad example at times. Thank you Jesus for your mercy and grace! If you are living a life directed toward Jesus you are on the right path. In fact, doubts maybe a sign of true salvation because we care about our testimony or it may be the devil trying to confuse us. Regardless, God does not want you to doubt so don't. LOL. Easier said than done. I used to have doubts all the time. My doubts kept me from progressing as a Christian so it was either my flesh or the devil. I pray daily for the Lord's help and direction. When I can feel His direction in my life especially through the rough times I no longer doubt...I know I am not good enough...but I also know God will not forsake me. OH and Patty....I am handing the branches off to you! I thought the passage was about the judgement seat of Christ....let's see what you think.
Okay! I am posting this then I will post the rest tomorrow. I find Hebrews chapter 9 to be very powerful. I believe it bears witness as to why we are no longer under the old law but the new law. A blood sacrific is no longer needed everytime we sin, Christ died once and for all. 1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover.[a] But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order. The Blood of Christ 11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
I do not know where they all are but I know of their existance.:angel: So I have to search around to find them.LOL Honestly, I do not think I am good enough. If I was, I wouldn't need my Savior. I agree with you that we should always strive to be Christ-like. But the enemy is a tough cookie. He will throw darts in all the weak areas of our lives. Jesus knows our weaknesses, this is why he came to earth and died as the ultimate atonement of our sins. We no longer need to slaughter our own animals and smear the blood on the alter. Jesus did it for us!!!! Whoo Hoo!!!!
