May I make a suggestion? This really isn't the place to be discussing one particular church. I'd be very interested in why you've made your comments, and what exactly the catechism says that you feel is against scripture. But that needs to be a seperate thread.
Mormoms also truly believe they are serving Christ. Does that please Him? NO! Matthew 7:21-23 reads: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but I would like to say this,..There are too few "Christians" as it is, and there are ppl who really want to believe in Christ, but never get close enough to knowing enough to do so out of the fear of running into judgement and dare I say "hate" everywhere they go, from "Christians", who should take them in lovingly and lead them the best they can..many of these presently are pagans, or athiests, or other things. I imagine it would be hard for a "Christian" so judgemental of his or her brothers and sisters to lead these ppl lovingly, after all, they are at the present, that which is despised by these "Christians". It's no wonder that so many of the lost just give up. But if you can't lead lovingly, with (real) love in your heart, which is transmitted into you'r words, then are you doing God's work really?
I didn't mean to hijack this post discussing doctrinal beliefs between Catholics & Christians. Jackie, it started with my post above, in relation to homeschool groups like the one I belong to, who requires that all members agree with our statement of faith. I mean no offense to anyone who is Catholic. I have never come across a Catholic who says they are saved apart from works. It has been the contrary. The ones I have conversed with say that to say they are saved is a sin called presumption. The sin of presumption is the name given to the belief in eternal assurance; it is presuming on God's mercy. (I got that from a catholic website). Again, I apologize for turing this into something unintended. I will keep from posting on this further.
Please forgive me for my last post, because it seems I have judged you, and I don't mean to do so, I am only sad for us all.
I as well. I just have a really hard time trying to remain peaceful and calm (one of my flaws...thank God I have Jesus ) when I feel a person or a group of people are being wrongfully judged.
To get back to the OP, I think you should ask the women about it in a nonconfrontational way. First get all the details so you can decide if this is the group you truly want to be a part of. They may have a different side of the story or details that you may not know about. It is possible this came up in conversation and the woman decided on her own to leave. If what you have been told is true, then I think it would be important to point out that their actions are not of Christ. They may be willing to see their error, or they might think they have done nothing wrong. If they think they did nothing wrong, then I would find a group that is more accepting of others. :angel: If this group does have a statement of faith and this is included, then I guess I can see where they would be able to defend their actions. However, bullying (if this is the case) in any matter should not be tolerated. To encourage someone to leave lovingly because they violated or don't agree with their statement of faith is one thing, but to bully someone and make them feel belittled is clearly another! ETA: I also want to say that while I agree that a statement of faith has it's proper place, I also think that some can go very overboard with unnecessary detail. Even within a group of all conservative Christians you will have different views on issues. We aren't made from cookie cutters, and I like to learn from others who see things differently, as I hope they also like to learn from me.
It is my absolute privilege to know Catholics and Jews who are dear Christian friends, and I'm constantly learning from them. I'm sure the Christian group in question would learn a lot from the OP. Exclusivity, too often, leads to closed minds. Education should be about opening our minds. Is this what's known as tempting fate? You probably received more than anticipated. Seriously, I hope you don't feel too put out by this.
You cannot make blanket generalizations about Catholics not being Christians. I know too many who ARE.
Wow! Guess I should have checked on this earlier... it's given me a bit to think about. First... the groups description, because as far as I could tell there was not much of an official statement of faith, is as follows: "We believe Jesus is God's Son and the only way to heaven through His sacrifice and God's forgiveness. We offer moms' support meetings, prayer support, field trips, holiday celebrations, play dates, and book clubs. You choose the level of involvement that is appropriate for your family. We are a very relaxed group whose main focus is in encouraging one another. " I think the statement is a good representation of what a good Christian group would be. The group has no official leader. I think it did when it started out and then the leaders split and now it's just a group that gets together like they did when there was a clear cut leader. Second... The woman I talked to indicated that it was one woman of the group who started harrassing her and then she got a few not very nice e-mails from some of the other women. I can see the point that she may have e-mailed something back and I don't know the whole story. However, there was also the second woman who had been in the Christian group and had made some close friends of quite a few of the women. She was not threatend or bullied, but said that the women had become a little over zealouse. Her children ended up not being christian enouph for their children to hang out with anymore and they were no longer included as they had been in the past. Personally, I don't want to ask names or confront any of these women. I'm not sure what good it would do especially if they are very convinced that their behavior is acceptable. I don't think it is the whole group. I'm not even sure who all in the group knows about it. It is a large group with around 60 families of various levels of active. And third... I didn't mean for there to be a big discusion about the Catholic religion and I'm not starting it up again here, but I am going to clear up my view of it. I was not raised Catholic, I married a Catholic and my son will likely be Catholic too, but that is for him to decide and neither here nor there. I had never heard of the idea of works getting you into heaven until this conversation and I've attended Mass mostly regularly for the past 10 years. And that's all I have to say about that. I thank you all for giving me some different points of view. I think right now I will "feel out" some of the women I think I can trust and try to get a better handle on the general tolerance of the group.
I was trying to encourage honesty and frankness, and I got it! Not put out at all. I really do value different points of view. Often someone can offer an angle I hadn't thought of myself and help me to see the bigger picture.
Best quote I ever heard in response to "Catholics not being Christians" and that is modern-day "christians" who make those claims are eating fruit from a tree they didn't plant. Great metaphor and I use it to make me realize that just being around Catholics does not necessarily mean one understands the religion. When I have "christians" who ask me about being Catholic, they are surprised we believe in exactly the same thing, we just do it differently. It is how being a christian works for us, and I would never disparage anyone for how they feel the need to come to Christ. I become concerned when people assert that there is only ONE way to worship. As long as you accept Christ, you should worship how you think God wants you to, not how others thing you should. With regards to homeschool groups (getting back to the topic ) I belong to a group that was accused of similar behavior. However, I didn't personally see any of that, and most of the ladies were my friends (and yes, they knew I was Catholic and lovingly embraced me for it) so I stayed while others left. Later, many came to find out it was just two ladies of those who left that blew things out of proportion and outright LIED about circumstances, and that group ended up breaking apart. Now many of the ladies who left are starting to return (we worked really hard to stretch that olive branch), and the group is stronger for it. The importnat thing is not to take all assertions at face value (basic critical thinking!). GOod luck with your group!
Oh, and the works thing is very old school, pre-Vatican two doctrine that went back to the middle ages, when religion in general just seemed to be a mess!
Honestly, it sounds like you just have one-sided accounts from two women, and one of those didn't even sound like she was being harrassed; she just felt like her views and those of the others didn't mesh. The thing is, I've met a LOT of women who are just extremely sensitive. As such, they tend to over-dramatize slights done to them and gloss over the slights they commit to others. They see honest debate as being argumentative and feel ganged up on when they can't keep up with the debate on their end. It's not unusual for a person who isn't really into defending what they think to take honest questioning about why they believe a certain way as being an attack. It's not necessarily an accurate view of what's going on; but I've seen it happen often enough that I'm always a little wary of just a one-sided look at things like this. I'd say take what you hear with a big grain of salt. While I wouldn't be shocked to find drama makers in the group making trouble for people and pushing them out, I also wouldn't be shocked to find drama makers wanting to cause trouble for the group by misconstruing what happened to them and their part in it. Unless you personally witness what you consider bullying or harrassment, I would just assume that these are people who had some personal issues with others in the group.
