I'm probably asking for tomatos here, and I don't usually post in Christian issues because I consider myself a relatively liberal Christian. I believe God loves everybody and therefore everybody is deserving of my love as well. That's my disclaimer. :love: So my issue is that I have recently learned that the Christian HS group I am part of has bullied and threatened people out of their group that are not "Christian" enough. I enjoy the group and have so far not incurred their rath even though I attend a Catholic church. Sometimes I need to hear their ideas on raising children who know and love God and Jesus, and they have a lot of great activities in my area. My son is making friends with great kids. But now I'm a little afraid of them too. One of the women that was threatened and told to leave, was done so because she posted about equal rights on Facebook. (And I know what the bible says about being gay, also what it says about adultery, and murder, etc. as well.) But didn't Jesus hang out with the sinners? My delima is that I'm torn between staying with the Christian group until I'm found out to maybe not hold all the same views as them, or stepping away from them on principal and my own fear of having my son's friends rebuke him. So, I've got my tomato shield up... what do you think?
I'm with you all the way. We avoided some groups because the parents were so militant. It's just not worth the hassle. Instead, we established our own group of friends, some neighbors, some friends of our friends, whatever was needed to go a good job. As I've mentioned elsewhere, so-called 'Christian culture', with its holier-than-thou attitude and in-your-face intolerance, is very frustrating to me. Rather than stand up to it in person, which just causes dissension, we just avoided it - even though I'm generally not one to walk away. And there will always be someone who questions your faith because you don't believe something they believe. Frankly, they are modern-day Pharisees, so don't let them get to you.
No tomatoes from me. :angel: This is my take. First I want to address the highlighted part of your post. Yes, Jesus did "hang out" with sinners but he never condoned their sin. He didn't hang with them to show that he supported their belief system. He hung with them so he could witness to them and show that he loves ALL sinners and desires All sinners to repent and TURN AWAY from their sin. He didn't hang with them to show he accepted the sin.:angel: As for the group, I do not know if your group has a statement of faith or a system that makes it clear they uphold a certain standard for the group itself. Some groups are strict and are for believers to uplift each other. Some groups are there for believers and non-believers, or whatever a person believes. So if this is the case, they shouldn't be pushing people out. Did that makes sense? Are there more liberal groups in your area? While I do believe we should never push anybody away, there are some groups that have a standard they uphold and whether it is right or wrong, it is up to you to decide if this is what you want to take part in.
I agree with Patty. The reason Christ was with the sinners was to save them from their sins into an eternal life with Him. Without acknowledging the sins, there is no hope for restoration. I would look into the faith statement of the group as well before rushing into any decision about leaving. If it's something you can deal with, I would stay as long as you feel comfortable doing so. That said, it is concerning that they are known for pushing others away.
But 'statement of faith' is irrelevant when the following is happening: - Bullying: I don't remember that being a fruit of the spirit - Threatening: Jesus was never one to conform to religious culture - Ostracizing: Making everyone fearful about stepping out of line and being humiliated by being told to leave Quite frankly, I think you're mistaken when you say this is a Christian group. What matters most are our actions, and, from your description, I see very little that's Christian in this group. They may think they are, but do you see much that's Christian in their attitudes? As for what Jesus did: - He hung out with "tax-collectors and sinners", despite the impression it created with the Pharisees. - He never criticized the woman they were going to stone or the woman at the well. - The people he did challenge were the Pharisees (sanctimonious bullies) and the money-changers (taking advantage of those seeking the Lord). Ironically, Jesus "posted" his views on equal rights time and again - by treating women with the same dignity and respect as men, for example. Nowhere, nowhere, nowhere in the Bible are we told to treat anyone with anything other than equal societal rights.
I agree with Patty & Steve also. I'm not part of any "Christian groups" because the ones around here require you to sign their contract. If I can't whole-heartedly agree to everything in it, I'm not going to sign it. Period. I'm in 100% inclusive groups that are inviting to all religions, styles, etc. Everyone in the group is there with the understanding that homeschooling is our common bond. You can form friendships with anyone, and if there's someone you don't like, ignore them.
I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. "God loves everybody, so everyone is deserving of my love as well." Yes, but as others have said, that doesn't mean you accept their beliefs or lifestyle. I love my stepson, but his lifestyle has made his visits with us uncomfortable to say the least (and no, he's NOT gay!). You say they have "bullied" and "threatened" others to leave. How do you know this? It may very well be they DO behave like this, and you might have to take a stand and leave. But, at the same time, there are two sides to every story and I have a feeling you've only heard one side. Have YOU PERSONALLY seen signs of bullying/theatening? Anthing you've observed that makes you feel uncomfortable? I could see someone getting their feelings hurt over something, and making a big deal over what was originally a very minor incident.
You're right. When I reread the original message, the issues relate to second-hand information - so the first thing is to verify that they are true.
I agree Steve that if bullying, etc. is actually happening that there is certainly something wrong if they are calling themselves a Christian group. I simply meant that everything should be checked before any drastic actions were taken. I don't think anyone should be forced into signing a contract to participate in a Christian group. That just seems wrong to me.
I agre 100%! About Jesus' reason for hanging around sinners, as well as about the group stuff. I am the co-leader of a Christian hsing group of about 23 families. We are VERY selective with who we will allow in. We are upfront about it though. They must agree with our statement of faith and claim to be born again through salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, not of works. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God - Eph 2:8 Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Rom. 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." I could go on... but we have had to turn away catholic moms who wanted to join becasue they did not agree w/ our statement of faith. We dont force anyone to have our beliefs or to join. We feel it is best for our families and our children to be with like-minded believers. Thus, we created our own group. Perhaps you could find a cathoilic homeschooling group? Catholics are not Christians and have different beliefs, you may be more comfortable with others who have the same beliefs as you. Just my opinion. Other than that, all Christians should show love for their neighbor, be them Catholic or Jewish, Muslim or Athiest, but we are called by Christ to share the gospel of salvation!
I agree with everything that has been said so far, but I do want to point out that we ALL make mistakes. Even though they are exhibiting this kind of behavior, it doesn't make themselves 'non-Christians'. I'm not condoning their behavior, as their behavior is un-Christian like, but I personally do not like telling people they aren't Christian just because they happen to act a certain way because all of our walks with Christ look different. Afterall, it's our belief in Him that make us Christian, not our actions. Yes we should walk the walk and talk the talk, BUT we still all make mistakes! It's really up to us, as FELLOW Christians to point out these behaviors in a loving and kind way. I would be willing to bet when we dig deep enough, there are behaviors in each and every one of us that need work...this is no different, IMO. Again...I'm not condoning their behavior! They might not realize what they are doing and just need someone to point out that their actions are being hurtful to others. This is really a perfect example of the fact that there are bad seeds in every group, Christian and non-Christian alike (if what people are saying is true). I would ask them about it and let them know that if this is true, it is not Christ-like. It's really our job to let our fellow brothers and sisters know when they are doing harm and being un-Christ like (where is that Bible verse?). To me, it doesn't matter if someone is liberal/conservative/moderate, etc...even two conservative Christians will have disagreements on certain Scripture! It's showing each other love that matters...afterall, they will know we are Christians by our love.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! Not to get defensive, but this is sooooooo misleading of a statement. I'm not Catholic, and yes it's true the Catholic faith is very different from other denominations, but I would NEVER say that Catholics are NOT Christians. I know MANY Catholics who are 'born again' and who have a solid relationship with Christ...isn't that what makes us Christian? To know CHRIST and have a relationship with Him, hence the term 'Christian'? Catholics can have that too, ya know. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, however, if I were Catholic, I might be kind of offended if I read this statement. I do know what you mean though, about a works-based philosophy in the Catholic church. I do know many Catholics who think that, but I also know MANY other Catholics who know that their faith is in Christ alone and their works has nothing to do with their salvation. I just wouldn't go as far as saying they aren't Christian.
The world may jumble up Christianity to include other beliefs such as Catholics, Mormons, etc. becasue they use the name of Jesus in their "religion", but a definition of Christianity is this: A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament. "Christian" derives from the Greek word Christ, a translation of the Hebrew term Messiah. Catholics (as in the Catholic Religion) do not adhere to the most basic defining thing that sets Christians apart from every other belief system: Works! I mean no offense to anyone. Most of my family is catholic and I love them all. They are still unsaved and unwilling to accept that to be born again all you have to do is repent and trust Jesus Christ as your savior. They believe they will never "know" and to say that you are saved is a sin. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." I am well-equipped with the Word of God to defend my stand that Catholics are not Christians. If a Catholic becomes born again, they they are Christian, not Catholic. If they are unwilling to forsake the works based religiousity, then they are sadly mistaken and likely unsaved.
WOW. It's really no wonder why there are so many people turned off by Christians when this is the attitude that is displayed to them, IMO. An attitude of rejection and judgement. I think your choice of words need some more rethinking before placing a label on all Catholics as unsaved! Not all Catholics are Christians, but neither is everyone who considers themselves a 'Christian' as their hearts may not be in the right place. It certainly doesn't mean that someone who chooses to follow parts of the Catholic faith isn't a Christian at all! Not all Catholics believe in a works based philosophy...and even though you may say 'then they aren't Catholic anymore' (however you want to label it), many of those Catholic's who know their salvation, still are near and dear to their Catholic faith OUTSIDE of that portion of their practices! ETA: While I am in complete agreement with you about the works-based salvation verses faith in Christ salvation (which of course is Scripturally based), there is nothing you can Biblically quote that will say "All Catholics are unsaved", as not all Catholics believe in a works based salvation! Even some of our Catholic churches around here do not practice a works based salvation!!! So, does that make them a non-Catholic church, even though their church says Catholic in the title??? Sounds silly to me! If you want to take the Catholic label away from them then, and just say they are 'Christian', then so be it! However, I know many Catholic Christians who see the good in parts of their Catholic faith that they still practice even though they know their salvation comes from Christ alone! When it comes down to it, we actually agree (it comes down to works vs. the Cross), but I think you're choice of words is quite a bit judgemental and a tad ignorant, IMO.
I am not judemental toward them. I will gladly share the gospel with them and love them either way. My grandfather used to be a catholic priest, so it is pretty deep in my family. I am speaking of the Catholic Doctrine, as stated in their Catechism. It is clearly defined that they do not uphold Christian beliefs. As a Christian, would you join a Catholic homeschool group? Maybe you would, but I wouldn't. Likewise, if a Catholic wants to join a Christian homeschooling group, they will be subjected to a different doctrine. Unfortunately, you are right, there are many who claim to be Christians who are clearly NOT! I am NOT condoning their behavior (the hs group mentioned). If they want to be so strict, they should be upfront. We have many different denominations in our group, as well as worship preferences, convictions, etc., but we are all like-minded as we believe that salvation is a gift from God and we cannot do anything to earn it. Maybe you don't know much about Catholic Doctrine. I didn't until I took an interest in the souls of my family. I found this book called "Understanding Roman Catholicism" to be helpful in breaking down their doctrinal beliefs and how it stacks up against scripture. You can read it online and also check out individual chapters. http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp It goes over just 37 Roman Catholic Doctrines, but all are important. This is wonderful to explain the Most Important Difference Between Protestants And Catholics: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/218/218_03.asp
I agree with Jen. And although I am not catholic, I would like to add that a lot of what are considered "works" by other "Christians", aren't "works" at all, and a lot of people even make assumptions as to what those "works" are. Again, I am not catholic myself, and there are things in the catholic faith that I disagree with (much like with many organized denominations), but a lot of what is involved in the catholic faith (what you may see as "works"), aren't deemed necessary by the church for salvation, but are put in place to offer a "lifestyle", if you will, because they feel that it keeps their faith close in the mind and hearts of the congregation. I certainly don't believe that we are "saved" works, but I do think the idea of making your faith a lifestyle is somethng everyone should do, no matter what their faith. I also believe that out of faith comes good works, for the Bible says so, and though we may not be saved by whatever those works may be, it shouldnt matter, we should want to do some works, not because we believe they will make us more saved or better, but out of respect for God. No, we don't have to practice any rituals that Jesus himself did when he was on Earth, but why persecute those who wish to try out of personal conviction? There are ppl who call themselves Christians as well, who disagree with your views, but what power does that give them to tell you you arent a Christian? They cannot read you'r heart like God can.
I would also like to add that Roman catholicism is a bit different than the newer church today, so you can't judge all catholics based on the Roman catholic church. They may or may not be wrong,..but essentially, most of them truly believe they are serving Christ, and who are any of us to say that Christ is completely dissatisfied with that?
Beautifully stated!!! :love: Many Catholic friends of mine would completely agree with you. They know they can't earn their way to heaven, but they practice many of the Catholic traditions because they feel closer to God when they practice them. No different than anything any other Christian would practice...so just because it happens to come from the Catholic faith doesn't make it 'bad'. Whatever helps you to have a closer relationship to Christ...so be it! I should also point out that the Roman Catholic doctrine is not the same as all other Catholic doctrines. The Roman Catholisism is the most strict out of most! Just like within the Protestant churches you will find a difference in doctrines, you will also find differences within Catholic doctrines. ETA: katjalily beat me to it!!!! ALSO...I don't go by just what I read in books about religion. I talk to people I know, get real information about churches in my community, etc. Perhaps that is what the original Roman Catholic doctrine stated MANY years ago, but it doesn't mean all Catholic churches in the world practice out of that doctrine today. And even if a church does, is doesn't mean all of its members do!
I have many Catholic friends that have accepted Christ as their Savior, and I know many Catholic people that haven't. "Being Catholic" isn't what gets you into heaven, or what keeps you out. No more than "being Baptist" (or Methodist, or Episcipalian, or whatever) will get you in or keep you out.
