I will say this up front. I am not a drinker. I don't like the taste of alcohol. I had my rebellious years where I did drink and get drunk on occasion, but I have not drunk (drank?) any alcohol for more than 17 years. So this question is not being asked to justify anything in my life. I have often wondered why some people say it is wrong for Christians to drink alcohol. 1. Jesus turned water into wine and it was the "best" for a wedding. If He didn't agree with wine, I don't think He would have done that. 2. There is a Bible verse that says that wine is good for digestion. 3. I just read an article that said it could be fermented or unfermented (same word). The problem I see with this is that there is no way of knowing for sure which one the particular passage is using. 4. There are other things that are mood altering that most Christians indulge in frequently. The best example is caffeine. I drink coffee sometimes at work and really does help me be more alert if I was sleepy. However, if I am already energetic I get a buzz of sorts and it is almost too much. I know this is not as strong as drugs, but... Anyway, what do you all think?
I don't believe drinking alcohol is wrong. I believe allowing yourself to drink to the point of drunkenness is sin, yet I don't hold such things against people in a condemning way. And interesting thing I noted a while back is that in the instructions for finding leaders in the church, scripture says they "are not to be given to much wine." It implies that they did partake of alcohol in some degree (which we know for a fact is cultural), but they were not to be irresponsible with it or have given themselves over to it.
I can't stand even the smell of liquor, so I've never been interested in alcohol. It's never been something I've struggled with. I once heard a pastor say that the word translated to "wine" was an unfermented drink. Personally, I think you have to think about the situation and how it affects your walk as a Christian. Obviously, getting drunk and acting like an idiot does not glorify God. A simple drink with friends? I think you have to decide for yourself.
I think it has a lot to do with context. If I drink at a "worldly" party, even if it is just one glass of wine, I am being too worldly. If I drink around people who believe it is sinful, I am being rude and perhaps sinful. If I drink around someone who has had or does have a problem with alcohol, then that is downright absurd and probably sinful. I said "I", but you know what I mean. I don't like alcohol. I actually drank and got drunk for the first time when I was 14. I never really did like it, but I wanted to "fit in". I also remember I didn't like the feeling of not being clear minded. I was, however, tempted to buy something strong to drink when my tooth was hurting back in January. I just wanted to get rid of the pain. I didn't buy any alcohol though.
I agree, cabsmom, that the situation in which alcohol is consumed is very important. I have no problem with those who enjoy a glass of wine with dinner and such.
I'm not a drinker either, but I find no fault in having an occasional fruity drink or glass of wine. My DH has an occasional beer as well. I think the problem lies in drunkeness, how it affects your walk with God, and your reasons for doing it. To be like others? Not a good reason to me. Because you'd like one just because? Sure, why not. JMO.
Yes, I do drink wine occasionally, and so do several others I know at our church. I see no problem whatsoever: Red wine is good for you. Without doubt, the wine that Jesus created from water was a fine vintage and alcoholic. It's a real stretch to try to explain it away. As a business executive who has traveled the world quite a bit, I've found that the issue of drinking can be an issue. For example, you cannot turn down a shot of vodka in Russia without causing offense. There are various ways of getting around excessive drinking, though, which is just as well: It's their tradition that there be one shot of vodka (with a toast) for everyone present at the meal - and I've attended some business dinners with over 20 Russian executives present. (The most I've ever had to consume in an evening is three shots; spread over time, it was not a problem.) When we lived in Britain, a majority of churches served real wine during communion. Honestly, this is something I really miss; drinking fruit juice seems so empty in comparison. I know it's symbolic, but there really is something about using real wine. Also, people sometimes wonder why I dip my bread in the cup during communion service. It's because I was once invited by Jewish friends (in Russia again) to attend their Pesach celebration. I felt very honored to be their guest, and friends translated everything for me. It really was a meal among friends, and several present dipped their bread in their glass of wine. So, doing so now reminds me every time that communion is a meal among friends, not just a weekly ritual. Sorry to go off topic a bit.
Some believe it's wrong for a man to have long hair. Some believe it is wrong for a woman to wear pants. Some believe it is wrong to wear jeans in church. Some believe it is wrong to visit a movie theater. Some believe it is wrong to dance. Some believe it is wrong to give blood. Some (in Britain) believe it is wrong to eat black pudding. Some believe it is wrong to go into business with someone from the opposite sex. Some believe it is wrong for a man to have his head covered, or for a woman to have her head uncovered, in church. Some believe it is wrong to smoke. Some believe it is wrong to send your children to public school. Some believe it is wrong for men and women to sit together in church. Some believe it is wrong to go shopping on a Sunday. Some believe it is wrong to spend money on perfume or jewelry. Some believe it is wrong to bring pets into church. Some believe it is wrong to play musical instruments in church. Some believe it's wrong to have a tattoo. Some believe it's wrong to baptize by sprinkling instead of by immersion.... We all have personal preferences, which is just fine. It's also just fine for church denominations to publish and adopt certain rules. What's not fine, IMO, is imposing those preferences and rules on everyone else.
Steve, You again bring up some good points. I like discussing things with you. One website I visited said that there were two different interpretations of the same word-so how can a person know for sure that one Bible passage is speaking about un-fermented and the other about fermented? I could understand if it was two different words that were translated into English as wine. As far as business meeting go, I am glad I don't have to face that situation. I honestly think I could avoid drinking and be polite about it. They may not like it and may even think I am being a clod, but I don't think I would drink to fit in even in that situation. I understand wanting to not be offensive to another culture. I also think that these days more and more people understand people from other cultures.
The list goes on and on... The older I grow, the more I find myself saying (out loud or in my head), "I really don't know what THE answer is or if there is ONE way to do this or that." In one way that is comforting- I don't have to figure it out. On the other hand it is scary- what if I am doing wrong? I used to have some very black and white opinions on some things and there are still some issues I feel very strong and sure about. However, there are some things were I can actually see the other person's point of view. I may or may not agree, but I can "see" where they are coming from.
I'd restate that: "more and more Americans understand people from other cultures." I've been to more than 70 different countries, and most, despite being very polite, expect you to respect their culture. In one country, I was given a right rollicking for wearing a jacket and tie, and not a suit, to a meeting. In Bangladesh, for example, I was told off, albeit politely, for shaking hands with a woman in the meeting; it's just not done in Muslim countries. Almost always, though, it depends on context. If I know a dinner meeting, for example, could well include a questionable location or heavy drinking, I'll often make excuses. It's not just drinking either: In Russia (again), they have this tradition called banya. I was expected to meet a customer there (an all-male event) for the first time. After stripping naked, you go through the following cycle of activities several times: sauna, beat others with sticks (gets the circulation going), dip in an icy pool, massage, shot of vodka. As a colleague put it, 'massage' in Russia is a bit of a euphemism: It's really being beaten to a pulp by some huge Russian guy. Suffice it to say, I did not attend the banya. I couldn't stomach going into a business meeting the following morning and telling customers that "I didn't recognize them with their clothes on." :shock: Anyway, I digress.
I guess I was just being optimistic about other people understanding our culture. I am not a world traveler. I think there are two ways to offend in a culture- one is to not follow the custom even when it won't affect you beliefs- which I see as downright rude. The other is to not follow a custom because it will affect your walk with God or you morals- which I don't see as rude. However, other people may see it as rude, so I guess you have to decide what is more important- is the issue big enough that sticking to your guns is more important than appearing polite? Or is the issue not that big to where you won't be betraying your beliefs? I probably would drink a glass of wine, if I were in a certain cultural setting. I don't think I would do anything that required me to strip naked in front of anyone (for many reasons). I don't know if I would drink vodka. I probably won't have to worry about it though so it is all hypothetical for me.
I don't have a problem with drinking wine, and I was raised Baptist, lol! We usually don't have it around the house, simply because I can't justify it in my food budget. As others have said, there's so much involved. Drinking and getting drunk are two seperate things; also, WHERE you do it makes a difference, and WHY. Carl will drink beer on occassion, but has never drank it to excess. He even has a Christian friend that lives around the corner from us. He sometimes goes over there in the evenings, and they have a beer or two. His wife also likes beer, so sometimes it's the four of us with me drinking water (because I don't do beer; HATE the taste!) or wine if they have it. One church we know has both wine and grape juice with communion; it's the individual's choice which they want to take.
Drinking it... Well, I still have two bottles left of the 16 I made about 10 months ago, and I gave away 8 of them for sure. (And I use it in cooking a lot) So, I'd have to say that drinking wine, while a normal part of my life, is not among my more frequent hobbies. :lol:
I don't believe alcohol is wrong in and of itself. As others have said, it's the getting drunk that is wrong. Personally, I don't drink (anymore). I wouldn't want it to be a stumblingblock for anyone else who saw me buy it or drink it. I don't look down on those who do drink it. The Bible also speaks of not putting new wine in old skins, because the old skins will burst. That's because "new wine" is just beginning its fermentation, and old skins don't "give" like supple new wineskins can, and will burst under the pressure of expanding gases in the fermentation process. Custom-wise, I believe they also mixed their fully-fermented wine with water, more at times and less at other times. I could be wrong about that, though.
Which is why I don't understand the idea that "wine" in the Bible is unfermented. Even the issue of wine for a sour stomach would be a non-issue if the drink was unfermented; it's the fermented wine that has the ability to calm sickness like that. Regular grape juice is too sweet, but the fermentation process consumes the sugar and result in (bacteria-killing) alcohol. Take the case of the water-into-wine: Why where the guests surprised that the hosts had seemingly saved the best wine for later in the event? Because usually the best stuff was served while guests were still sober and the low-quality wine was served after the guests were too buzzed/drunk to notice. That doesn't happen on juice. :wink: In Acts 2, the onlookers thought the believers had "had too much wine." Again, this would not have been an issue if, culturally, wine was non-alcoholic. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that, despite cultural normals, Jesus' wine just happened to be unfermented. I think that whole idea is a cop-out for preachers who can't otherwise explain how their personal doctrines seem counter to what Scripture says.
I also think that unfermented wine makes no sense in the Biblical sense! Not being a stumbling block. Now that will depend on who and where. I wouldn't make a habit of going into a bar, but I would go into a pub if, for example, a friend was playing thee. At the same time, I did that once MANY years ago with my younger cousin. This cousin is not a believer, and she was also only 19 at the time. We were there to listen to a folk band that was playing; my dulcimer instructor was part of it. Anyway, normally I would have had a glass of wine. I don't feel that one (or even two) glasses of wine will hurt my testimony. But my "little" cousin was with me, and I felt that if I were to order wine, so would she and she was "under age". So I drank pop instead. It really is a matter of whom you are with. I would never order a glass of wine around my aunt, but would around my dad. It's really a matter of respect for the other person. Watering it down. When I was in high school, I was invited t help a woman cater something for a Bar Mitzvah. Everyone there was drinking wine, but it was watered down. I got the imipression that this was typical for an event where children would be drinking. Now, there might have been some "full strength" stuff that I didn't know about for the men of the party, but if so, the caterers didn't bring it!
