I just came across a verse this morning, that kind of addresses the whole, "Abraham was willing to give up his son, because he saw him as property" thing. "Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Hold Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself." 1 Corinthians 6:19 Now, I know that the Hold Spirit was not on the Earth when Abraham was here, but the same principle of 'we don't belong to ourselves, we belong to God' applies, doesn't it?
leissa: Well, no need to apologize! Let Scripture speak for itself, I say. (There have been plenty of Bible-believing Christian scientists and scholars, too.)
Wow! That hit me hard today. What a great way to put it! I'm going to be thinking about this a lot today.
It does beg the question, though: why would God speak differently from what He has already said in His Word, the Bible? I agree with leissa, above. Setting out to 'prove' why not to trust Scripture, doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't think the issue is with proving why NOT to trust Scripture. Augustine did not accept a literal 7 day creation. It wasn't that he didn't trust scripture; it was the he did not trust the human interpretation that would have the creation account be a literal 7 day account. The issue, as always, is between the humans and how we each interpret Scripture.
I am having a hard time with the "law" stating that a woman should be stoned if she can't be proven to be a virgin before marriage in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 22). This seems to contradict the way Jesus approached sin. If Jesus is fully God and God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, then why the huge change. Yes, I know about the covenant, but that new covenant was made because of God's deep love for his creation. If He is the same God today as He was then, I don't get why He would condone such a brutal act. This kind of stuff causes me to back off some from prayer, devotions, and I don't even really want to go to church (because I feel like a hypocrite being there at times). I haven't lost all faith, but I have a very tenuous hold on faith right now. Sometimes I want to wake up feeling bad enough to stay home from church. I don't stop going, because I know that this may not last and I want my son raised with faith and commitment.
I think, again, the issue is with your expectations and a certain perception of who wrote the Bible rather then what's in the Bible. It might be worth some research into different ideas about how the Bible was written and how we might read it. Brat Ehrman is an author that does a good job of relating modern Biblical scholarship. Religioustolerance.org is a good starting place as well.
First it's good to remember what Scripture calls 'the exceeding sinfulness of sin'. But then if we read a passage such as John 14.1-6, and focus on the compassion of the Lord Jesus for His people, we can wonder in appreciation of His redeeming love. Teaching children doubt about Scripture isn't helpful. The secular idea that everyone is morally neutral and if only we read the Bible less we would all be supposedly better, is a plain lie.
Frankly, this is one of many issues that are often ignored. I've heard some say that Christians believe only in the New Testament and not in the Old: Wrong because they are both inspired. I've heard others say that we follow Jesus and not the God of the OT: Wrong because they are one and the same. I've heard other cryptic arguments, which, quite frankly, are papering over the cracks - as if they are somehow 'mysteries'. Atheist writers, such as Richard Dawkins, have a field day when this happens. His book 'The God Delusion' tears away the paper from many of those cracks - so we'd better have real answers that can stand scrutiny. Both the intellectual and practical aspects of our faith must be thorough, not flimsy and based on sound-bites. The more I've considered this particular topic, the more I've come to see details of the OT law as an invisible fence.
Based on this argument, why don't we apply the death penalty today for a wide range of offenses, including rebellious children, picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and so on? Is sin somehow less sinful that it was a few thousand years ago?
This is good! We should not blindly follow the 'Christian cultural' norms of today, because so many of them are wrong and, sadly, mixed with patriotism, right-wing politics, and an inflated view of 'self.' Question everything! The process will tear away the superficial chaff of today's culture and replace it with solid structure. As a result, you'll become so much more passionate about your faith and your son will see it and absorb it even without you saying a word. Pursue Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith! When the veneers are all gone, Jesus the person will remain - and his presence will be irresistible.
It is interesting that you bring up patriotism. I believe that the U.S. is a great country. What I also believe is that we have an inflated view of just how great (or not) we really are. I wouldn't want to live in a country that took my freedom, don't get me wrong. This country lacks some things found in other countries. Like a sense of community. So many people are living totally separate lives from their neighbors. Anyway, that was a little side note to what I really want to say: Is is Christian (not just the cultural Christian) to pledge allegiance to the flag? I usually go ahead and do so, but I almost always question myself and the practice. I know we are not bowing down and worshiping the flag, but it seems like we almost make it an idol.
It seems to me that many Christians are fine with the OT stuff, because it happened to someone else. We are probably as evil or more so than people back then as a whole, so how do we escape our own bloodshed for punishment for sins? It all comes down to Jesus and I hold on to that. But, whoa to the people who think for some reason we are any better than the people in the OT. In some ways I believe we are worse (or at least a great number of us are, including me). I have been forgiven by grace and I have willingly sinned since then. Talk about being an awful person. A free gift of grace is given and I treat it like it is nothing at times. I just think it is wrong (very wrong) to simply put these troubling passages aside with the easy explanation that it was "back then" or "old covenant" or "different culture" or whatever people tend to say. Those to me are often a simple way to make oneself feel good about whatever could be confusing. It reminds me of a story I read, "The Lottery", where a woman was gung-ho about the random stoning of a person in the community, UNTIL it was she that was going to be stoned.
For sure, it's not Christian. On the other hand, I'm not sure that it's making the flag an idol either. It's a patriotic tradition. What I can tell you is that I get a lot of strange looks at school events at which parents are required to pledge allegiance. I just stand there silently, hands by my side, because it's not my flag: I won't pledge allegiance to it. I'm not meaning to be disrespectful, but I wouldn't expect Americans in Britain to pledge allegiance to Britain either. Which brings me to the point I wanted to make: I remember, soon after we moved to this country, attending a church service at which attendees were expected to sing various patriotic songs, pledge allegiance to the flag, and so on. We were British citizens looking to worship God and felt really awkward. More and more churches have the privilege of seeing international students in the congregation. Personally, I think we should consider just how off-putting patriotism in church is to them. Requiring a pledge at a government school is one thing: Demanding the same in a place of worship (or even in a Christian school) is something else.
It's very, very odd to those of us from outside to see that kind of thing, isn't it? We grew up not realizing God was American, silly us.
I know that I took a turn in the conversation here, but I have often felt that I was doing wrong in my Christian walk by pledging allegiance to the flag. Maybe it isn't an idol, but it seems wrong. I know that I am the type of person to think seriously about stuff that others don't worry about. I have also heard their are religions out there that don't pledge allegiance to any flag. I don't want to change to another religion. Maybe I could just be respectful and abstain without drawing attention to myself. I respect this country and the freedoms it was built on. I respect the people who have died to make that possible. I respect the current freedoms we have now (for how long?). I just think I can be respectful and grateful and not pledge the allegiance.
Pledging allegiance to a flag isn't even something most Christians do and I even bet a good many American Christians don't do it. Heck, I wouldn't do it for the Canadian flag even in a non-religious manner. The flag is an important symbol of my country but ultimately it IS just symbol.
I was raised Quaker, and my mother taught me oaths (of any sort) are a deadly business. You don't give an oath unless you're willing to die for it. Basically... don't give oaths, because it's too easy to find yourself trapped between your oath and your ethics (or, worse, your commitment to God!). But, there's an option. Instead of swearing, you can affirm. Affirmation means you're going to do your best, but you won't foreswear God to keep your oath. I affirmed my allegiance to the flag every morning as a child in the US. Later we moved to Canada. When I became a citizen, I affirmed my commitment to my new country. In court I affirmed that I would tell the truth. When I joined the military, I affirmed my allegiance to the Queen. "Affirm" and "swear" have identical legal definitions, but very different spiritual ones. It works for me!
As to the questions regarding the laws and punishments from the OT, I think it's important to realize that many of those laws were put in place by leaders run amuck They were trying so hard to make sure that the true laws of God (10 commandments) were followed to a tee, thatthey implemented ridiculous standards that no one could ever live up to. The 10 commandments were put in place by God to show (I think) just how much we, as humanity, need a Savior. We can't realistically uphold the commandments under our own power and need the grace and mercy of God to reconcile ourselves to Him. I tend to take the Bible literally at every turn, even Creation. He tells us that we were created in His image, we are the only beings that He personally breathed life into, He tells that His ways are not our ways and His timing is not ours. I think it's a fantastic example of His love for us that He made sure everything was perfect for us before He placed man in the Garden. Sadly, we abused the free choice He blessed us with and messed it all up rather quickly. He easily could have given up on us at any time (and who would blame Him?), but He hasn't. His desire is that Not One would be lost to Him.
dawninns, A lot of Christians pledge allegiance to the American flag here in the U.S. and during 4th of July time our church does a very patriotic service. It almost is like a history lesson instead of a sermon. I think hyper-patriotism in appearance is a big thing here in the U.S. A lot of people are quick to shout how they are loyal and would do anything, but I don't buy it. Yes, there are still some who are putting their life on the line or willing to do so, but there are a great many who are only happy because they get their freebies here and if that were to stop, watch out- they will be the first to put down their country. I think it is better to not pledge the allegiance and be appreciative of your country than to "look" patriotic and pledge at every occasion and not really be appreciative of your country. I would like to think what other cultures think of the attitude that many Americans have that our country can do no wrong and other countries can do no right.
