Just to clarify....we have never given, nor have I ever received, a bare bottom spanking. There is a difference between physical discipline and degradation. I deserved to be spanked because I 1) lied about where I was staying that night, 2) was out past curfew, and 3) was drinking. Oh, buddy, did I deserve it. My dad used a switch on me that night and I was grounded indefinitely. I had to forfeit the keys to the car to my freshmen brothers as soon as we arrived at school. It took more than 4 months to earn my parents' trust back, and rightfully so. I agree with Aime in that the authority your parents have on you is very much different than anyone else in your life, save God. They represent our relationship with Him. And He told them to use the rod.
Thank you for your explanation. I was taught that the rod is a shepherd's crook - a tool for guidance? Like in "your rod and staff, they comfort me".
In that same era, the OT law prescribed the death penalty for rebellious children and those who violate the Sabbath, but we don't take those statements seriously today. That was a very different time and culture. We must be very careful not to pick and choose the verses we like. As far as I recall, I only ever spanked one of our six children - the oldest boy. He was a terror at times, and he was very rebellious as a teen, but he's an absolute joy today. Honestly, looking back, I wish I'd not listened to those advising us at the time that spanking was OK: I believe I was wrong, and I would not do it over again.
Spanking an older teen is ridiculous. My dh can testify to this. His mother would attempt to spank him as a teen. She'd grab the fly swat, the broom, whatever was handy and try to make him cry. (my dh wasn't a crier even as a small child) She'd get madder and madder. The madder she got the worse her aim was. When she's start riding up his back, my dh would turn around and take the flyswat away. My Mil is 5 foot 2. My dh is not a huge guy but at the time he was bigger than she was. The whole thing just caused more conflict. I plan on having my dh address issues with my son when he is a teen. And my dd13 occasionally gets a swat or 2 but it hurts her worse to be grounded from something she loves.
As with any punishment, regardless of age, it's only a good idea if it's effective. I haven't spanked my 5yo in a while because it's completely ineffective... for him. Then again, I've yet to find a punishment that is. He truly does not care about consequences and will immediately repeat the offending behavior. It's.... scary.
yep. finding out a kid's "currency" is the key. I've found that using currency works better than just overall grabbing a spoon and whaling away. My dh remembers as a kid thinking "oh yeah, I am going to get it for this, but I think it is worth the spanking." It seems that most of the "spankers" I see use it instead of thinking about what punishment would be more meaningful to the kid. They are less thoughtful and more reactionary. We do spank here, but I try to be thoughtful as well. Spanking lately is a last resort. But then my youngest is 3. Most of my kids are old enough to understand a longer term punishment.
The question is not whether you agree with spanking or not. It's whether or not you're willing to take the decision on how to discipline out of the hands of the parents. When I was in the classroom, we had one difficult child. Of course, we're not allowed to spank him, so that isn't even considered. So the teacher would have him sit in the hall. The principal said no, he can't miss instructional time. So the teacher kept him in for recess. No, the principal told her, he needs time to run around. So she took the computer away from him. No, that falls under "instructional", so it cannot be taken away. Stay after school? No, because he rides a bus home. So what CAN the teacher do? ANY form of punishment can be "demeaning", or "cruel". For each of us that can tell how it "didn't work" for you, there's just as many who will tell how it DID work for them. What works for one won't for another. So let the PARENT decide what is best! And will the parent always make the best or right choice? NOPE! But it's so easy for those of us sitting on the outside to judge, isn't it?
Well said! A parent friend once told me that there was no reason to ever spank because time outs worked perfectly well for every situation. Another friend immediately declared that time-outs were liken unto solitary confinement and equally as cruel. The only acceptable "punishment" in her mind was redirection combined with extra love. Once you start down the rabbit hole of removing (possibly) useful punishments, you end up with no punishments at all. (BTW, time outs don't work for my oldest. He told me one day, after giving him a time out, "Thanks! I really wanted to be alone.")
My husband used to be pro-spanking. When my daughter was four, she started running away in stores and hiding from us. We got to find out what "Code Adam" was in Walmart! We warned her, we took things away from her, we had her in time out and time in, and finally my husband told her that if she did it one more time, she was getting a spanking. As soon as he said it, my daughter got this look on her face like, "Cool! I've never had a spanking before! I wonder what it's like?" And then she promptly ran away and hid. So, my husband took her home, marched her down to the basement and spanked her. When it was over, my daughter came up the stairs and announced to our whole family (Grandma, uncle, everyone!), "Daddy spanked me! And he broke my little heart!" She was proud of herself, the little minx! And the worst part was, she kept telling everyone she met about it, in just those words, for the next week. My husband found it deeply embarrassing. That was the first and only time he's ever spanked either of our kids. I ended up just instituting a rule that she wasn't allowed in stores unless she was holding my hand, because we couldn't trust her. That finally solved the problem of her running away, though it was a bit of a hassle with a baby and an armful of groceries. My daughter's "currency" these days is books. If she's blowing off her school work, we take away her Kindle. Then she knuckles right down to earn it back. She's pretty typical - a good kid, but she gives in to temptation, occasionally. My son... never needs to be formally punished, for anything. I sent him for time outs when he was younger, but those weren't "punishment", they were just a chance for him to pull himself together. He's a perfectionist with anxiety issues. I find I need to step carefully around him, when it comes to criticism. Even a harsh word cuts far too deeply. All the typical "kid stuff", like lying and cheating, sassing back and sneaking, and so forth... he just doesn't do any of it, and never has. He worries me, to be honest. He's too hard on himself.
Actually, to my mind, that means the time out worked! Just so long as your oldest came back sweeter tempered, anyway. :lol: If he was serious, my response would have been. "Good! The next time you want to be alone, take yourself to your bedroom. Don't make me send you there!" And if he was saying it to be snarky, then I would have sent him right back to his room. (But my time outs didn't have time limits. It was just part of an overall rule that I don't want to have you around if you're not going to be nice.)
They share a room, so our time outs are in a chair facing the corner. He sort of was being snarky. He just enjoys sitting and starting off into space. Which means, as a deterrent for incorrect behavior, it's completely ineffective. Likewise, if I start taking toys away, he'll add on a few more he doesn't want anymore anyhow. So that is also ineffective. If I make him stay home from an activity, he'll decide he didn't really want to go anyhow, and will have more fun at home (i.e. Monday I told him if he didn't have his clothes put away in time, he couldn't go to VBS. He decided he didn't want to go anyhow, and laying in bed at home would be more fun. Completely ineffective. lol). He's just content with whatever you throw at him... except spanking. If I tell him ahead of time that certain behaviors will result in a swat, you bet your bippy he won't behave incorrectly (very much).
I try not to enter spanking debates because most of the time it is pointless. Red marks...that is too vague. My husband used to get spanked so hard he had welts. He is fine. I don't advocate it...and I don't do that. However, what I do advocate is that spanking is not abuse. Red marks is not enough for something to be called abuse. I think this was a family issue as Jackie pointed out. But...I have no idea as the article was vague on the "injury". I do not spank my 13 year old...but I'd have to say she has not done anything to deserve one...YET. LOL. It would probably hurt her more to take away her cell phone or computer. I spank but it is not the only form of punishment I use. It is not a last resort. I have certain things I spank for and certain things I do not.
I was counting to three at the library once, while checking out books. The librarian was telling me that this didn't work with her daughter. Her daughter would look her right in the eye and say, "Made you say 'three'!"
I think it already has to a degree. Abuse is not tolerated even though some parents considered beatings an important part of their discipline method.
Looking back, at our government school in Cornwall, some of the teachers were out-and-out sadists. There were canings every day, and I remember some boys being slapped around the head/ears. In one class, a teacher threw a wooden blackboard eraser at someone for talking in class and it hit another on the head. One math teacher, in particular, used to take someone's wooden ruler and hit an unruly student with it until it broke in half. Students used to dread that it would be their ruler, because we were all poor and couldn't afford a new one. This scene, from a well-known English movie of the late 60s, is set in a poor area in the north of England - but the scenes are only too familiar. The pain in your hands would increase and increase until it was almost unbearable. Thank heaven that caning is banned today in Britain. Sadly, there are parents who are equally as sadistic, and children need protecting from them. If the price to be paid is that responsible parents cannot spank their children, then so be it - because responsible parents will find an alternative. I'm all for keeping the government out of the home, but sometimes the vulnerable pay a price when we stand on ideology.
Just want to say, I love this response! A friend of mine just commented, with regards to this conversation, "I just want to say, for me and my siblings, we didn't know when the line was being crossed." She likes the fact that now (in Canada) it's illegal to hit children with objects. She says it makes things much clearer. FWIW, she also thinks spanking (with a hand, clothed bottom) can be appropriate when they're young and you need an instant, painful consequence.
I could not disagree with you more. Do you realize what a slippery slope you are advocating? And do you honestly believe abuse would end if spanking was illegal? I can't even see how the two are connected. Abuse is illegal NOW and it happens daily. Where is the connection??? That is like saying if guns were illegal then by some twist of fate a criminal would have no access to one or crime would lessen.
I do understand where you're coming from, but here's the issue for me: - Some complain that the government should do more about poverty, but it's not needed; we as individuals can choose to give - Some complain that the government should do more to educate children, but it's not needed; we as individuals can choose to invest in our children's education - Some complain that the government should do more to help our neighbors who are out of work, but it's not needed; we as individuals can choose to help them Just like, in general, I don't want the government interfering in my daily life, I don't want other people interfering either. The corollary, of course, is that we can't interfere in the lives of others, so there's little we can do when we see children being abused. For this reason, I have no problem with the government taking some steps to protect them on our behalf. We're not talking about cameras in the living room or parenting exams or whatever, just some simple practical steps that will help some of the most vulnerable in society. It won't end abuse, that's for sure, but it may help bring a case against some parents who might otherwise get away with cruel behavior.
I still disagree Steve. I see what you are saying but honestly...I cannot see how making spanking illegal will prevent abuse. There are already laws about abuse. The government already can take steps to remove children from the home based on a comment from a neighbor. If my neighbor calls children services today and lies...my children will be removed by nightfall. I cannot stand the thought of an abused child. I do not want any child to suffer needlessly or be at the hands of a cruel and abusive parent. However, what you are supporting will only effect responsible parents as cruelty and abuse will happen regardless of the law...as it we see now since it is currently against the law.
This is the balance in politics: If we do nothing, the responsible are in no way impeded but the irresponsible go scot-free. If we do too much, the responsible face unnecessary rules and regulations but the irresponsible may face consequences for their actions. Where do we draw the line? Honestly, I don't see this issue of "no spanking" being a big deal. As responsible parents, we have other ways of handling the situation. If, by choosing those avenues instead, we can bring indirect relief to an abused child, I'd welcome the idea. Whether the government could stop there and not dream up other regulations is, of course, another matter.
