There are an increasing number of incidents of individuals living under oppressive regimes, and in Muslim countries in particular, who are coming to Christ as a result of a dream or a vision. This is not to minimize the importance of evangelism, but it does point out that the Lord does not need us for his will to be done. Yes, the role of the local church is central to NT teaching, but God's will is done no matter what. We can't stymie his will any more than we can earn our salvation. He is sovereign.
In a rare moment, I have to agree with Steve. lol I stand by my original assertion: God does not NEED us to do anything for Him. He is gracious enough to allow us the opportunity to serve Him, thereby allowing us to be a part of the amazing Gospel message He wrote/is writing. WE are the ones who NEED to be a part of it. WE are the ones who benefit from evangelizing, not God. To think that I have anything to offer God that He can't accomplish without me is arrogant and foolish. Because a God who's work is dependent upon man is not a God worth serving. (To be clear, I am with Steve again in the idea that missions and evangelism is important and useful and right and mandated by the Word.)
I stand with Amie and Steve! God USES us, but He doesn't NEED us to do anything. He will accomplish His will one way or another.
It is not God’s will that anyone should die and go to hell, and yet we know there are many who have and will die and go to hell. Could God have fulfilled His will that Christ come in the flesh without man? Without a virgin to fulfill prophesy? Did not God "need" a virgin once the prophecy was written to fulfill it? Man is not completely irrelevant and unnecessary. Jesus is referred to as the "Son of man" more times in the NT than as the "Son of God" and when He returns it will be as the overcoming Man. It's not about being arrogant and thinking more highly of oneself than one ought, and it's not about God being weak, it's believing what the bible says about how God has chosen to deal with man and spread His gospel. God has used dreams and visions all throughout history. In the testimonies that I have read of Muslims having visions and dreams, they were not completely ignorant of Jesus and the gospel, and after having the dreams they desired to find more information about the Lord and went to Churches or inquired of Christian friends. Man is still involved in God's work in these instances, and what would God want of these who become Christians through a dream? Preach the gospel to their families and neighbors. Not everyone receives a vision.
I'm so glad I don't have the same limited view of God that is being expressed here. My God is omnicient and omnipotent. It should be noted that a prophecy is just that: it is not a pre-dictation of how things must play out; it is an already known future. Meaning God wasn't limited by a prophecy. The prophecy was written based on what He already knew would happen. Again: God NEEDS nothing from me. Period. It is arrogance to think otherwise.
But you imply that, if it wasn't for us, more would be saved. This is not the case: And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. In other words, all of God's children will be saved, every one of them. Our actions do not affect that in any way. God's will is always done. If we didn't tell of the Savior, or if some did not respond to dreams and visions, he'd have the rocks cry out! Although God's will is always done, there are things that God cannot do. In particular, he always acts consistent with his personality and cannot act otherwise. This is why we know we can believe his promises, otherwise he might just be lying! Sin needed to be dealt with in a particular way, one that reflects how God is and how his kingdom is. And prophecy is necessary because it's one of the two proofs of who Jesus is. As for his titles, "son of God" is because he is God incarnate; "son of Man" means he assumed the body of a human animal. I agree that we're not irrelevant or unnecessary, "what is man that you are mindful of him?", but we cannot thwart his will. Absolutely. It is the sole reason we remain on the earth - to make disciples.
I did not say otherwise. So God did not decide that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He just knew that's the way it would happen? And even if God didn't plan it, but just knew it would happen, was not a virgin still needed?
God knew before He ever created the earth and mankind that mankind was going to "blow it" and a solution to that problem would be needed. He gave people clues about how the scenario was going to play out, and these people told it or wrote it out - we call that prophecy. If he hadn't created man, there would be no problem, so Christ would not have had to come in the flesh, no virgin, no cross, no suffering, no sin (human anyway), no salvation needed by humans. But He did choose to create man - not because He needed us, but because He wanted to. People, sin problem, Christ, salvation. Got some? Share it! God doesn't NEED us to accomplish anything He can't do for Himself, but He graciously ALLOWS us to take part in His plan. But some choose NOT to take part in His plan - not in the sharing, not in the receiving, which is a choice He gave us. He has a plan for each of us, which He knew before He made us, but we can choose not to follow it. If the one He chose to fulfill a purpose chooses not to, He will raise up another, or will fulfill it some other way.
I agree with your whole post except: This is where I disagree. I believe that some will go to hell who might have believed but they did not hear because either someone did not obey and go, or someone did not pray for God to send laborers. This is not to say that God is unjust. They go to hell not because they did not hear of Jesus, but because they violated their own conscience and God-given sense of right and wrong. I know the problem is with my use of the word "need" as if God is weak and can't do something apart from man. As you pointed out, none of this would even be happening if man did not exist. I'm saying that God has chosen to use man as the vessel to fulfill his plan. And in that regard, man is needed and necessary.
Part of the problem is that we have a hard time understanding the meaning of 'omnipresent'. We are constrained by the 'arrow of time', whereas, for an omnipresent being, time is just another dimension to be traveled and experienced and enjoyed. And this is why prophecy is so important, because it's proof positive that a being exists outside of time. For us, we believe we can choose - and we actually can choose - but God saw us choose before the world was created, because time is no boundary for him.
We are predestined and elect according to God knowing beforehand who would believe on the Son. To believe otherwise is to not believe the bible when it says God is not willing that any should perish.
Then how do you explain these verses? And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. I don't see any condition here. Every one of those predestined was called. Every one of those called was justified. Every one of those justified was glorified. Not one was lost along the way. He knew us before the very foundation of the world. No one, nothing, neither Heaven nor Hell, can stop one of his children from being saved - most definitely not anything we may or may not do. And thank God for that!
One of our older Gideon stories that I heard so long ago that I can't remember the details anymore, tells of "somebody somewhere" who was in a jail cell for "some reason", and "somehow" ONE page of a Bible was in that cell, which the person found and read. And prayed to receive Christ and was saved. If a person won't go, God will arrange something. And all those who have had little/no opportunity to hear up until this point in time, and those who will not hear before time is up, God will judge justly according to their opportunity and ability to understand. If they get it from a dream or vision directly from God, or from one page of His Word, those who will get it will get it. Are we supposed to pray/go/send? Sure! But if that doesn't happen, something will. God is not willing that any should perish. But if people won't go/send someone else/pray, the rocks will cry out and the trees will clap their hands. The heavens proclaim the glory of God, so if that's all the Word they get, they still have no excuse.
Your quote is from a single NT verse: "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." To whom is the verse addressed? "you". In context, who is "you"? Peter is writing to believers, to God's children. Again, not one of his children will ever be lost. It's like the famous John 3:16. Who is "whosoever"? His children, not everyone who ever existed. Mind you, theologians have argued "Calvinist versus Arminian" for centuries, so I doubt we'll resolve the matter here. And in end, as long as we faithfully follow the Lord's command, it really doesn't matter. And, trying hard to get back to the OP's point, the Lord's command is that we should strive for "equality" among believers, so we should be faithful to that too.
By the way, thanks for not taking these responses personally. Thinking about it, I'm not exactly being welcoming to someone new to the forums. So...welcome!
BTW, to get a plug in here because it's a really good place for it, a wonderful way to "send someone" is to contribute to Gideons International. Their main goal and purpose is to distribute a copy of the Word of God to as many people around the world as possible, in the language of the person receiving it. The Gideons are the ones who put the Bibles in hotels, hospitals, prisons and jails, and distribute the little red New Testament to fifth graders (when allowed to), and distribute other colors of New Testaments to military, workers, and anybody that even remotely acts like they may want one.
Actually I was meshing from Paul and Peter. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow... 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father... True, true, just wanted to point out that I'm not Arminian. I disagree with you about "whosoever". Jesus died for everyone, but only those who believe and continue to believe (believeth - continue in the faith - Col 1:23) will have eternal life. Thanks! I realize it looks like I came in with my fighting gloves on. I didn't mean it that way. I do love to discuss the Bible and just jumped right in! Sorry about that.
LOL, you have an opinion, and that's fine! We are always open to opossing opinions! And as far as fighting gloves, you should have seen Steve before we mellowed him out, lol! I think it still comes back to what Steve said. God is not limited by our sense of linear time. He is past, present, and future all at the same time. So, as already said, he knows what is going to happen because it ALEADY HAS happened. God does not NEED humans to fulfill His will, but He choses to USE humans. Yes, it is His will that all be saved, but by His very nature, He is contrained to allow free will.
