Anybody have any thoughts on this? Nancy Grace said last night where are the men? That's what I'd like to know! Why hide? They've done the deed, now let them face the music..
I don't watch the Nacy Grace show, but my thoughts on this is that by doing the DNA testing they will find out who the mother and fathers are. That will determine the age of each parent....... I know mormons don't believe in poligomy any more and this sect has gone against its own main faith. Its sad that those kids have to go through this but at the same time I hope this helps the situation. The part that makes me think that the majority of the women don't like the situation they are in is the fact that when given the choice to return home or go to a womens shelter, most of them chose to go to a woman's shelter.
That doesn't really seem to be the case here, though I think usually that is the case. These women don't think anything is wrong with the way they live. They are indoctrinated to believe that anything outside the compound is hell and that everyone outside is evil. These children are in for a very hard time! Foster care is going to be very difficult for them. I'm not sure what the men's stance is or why they are remaining unseen.
I will probably get blasted for some of what I'm about to say so here it goes..... ( just to clarify..my mother was LDS , a large part of my family is still LDS and I do know some about the FLDS so my point of view is through their eyes in a way). Most of the women choose the women's shelter because they were able to stay with the children that way. Plus from what I seen on t.v the lawyers wanted the women ( mothers) front and center to get the "people" on their side. As for the men they were there! Several of them had family photo's with them and talking to the reporters and even crying because they wanted their children back. Now I was on vacation in Utah when this story broke...the media coverage was much different ( and more in depth) then it is here in Nevada. In Utah there was coverage of the men ( plus they said some of them didn't come because they had to take care of the ranch ,not compound, ) everyday , Nevada I haven't seen one scene with the men in it. If this is so wrong then why are all of the lawyers for the FLDS doing this for free?? They are lawyers, they know the law and they even say that what the state of Texas is doing is wrong!! No the majority of the lawyers are NOT FLDS or even LDS, they heard about all of the 400+ children being taken away and they had to do something about it!! I hope that it gets overturned because the "tip" by the "16 year old" turned out to be a 40+ old woman in Colorado who does this on a regular basis ( some "16 year old" called in a tip about a "compound" in Colorado City in Arizona but the state choose not take the tip seriously because it came within days of the same tip made in Texas). The minimum age to marry is 16 ( with parent's consent) in Texas. Yes, I believe that the FLDS has some strange practices and beliefs BUT the children and women seemed fine , were well feed/clothed, loved, sheltered, etc. That is the way that they grew up, their parents were raised this way and their parents parents raised this way. I don't believe that girls under 15 should have children but other countries believe in multiple marriage and have children under 15 and no one is up in arms about that. Is it better for the children to be placed in foster care ( probably for years now) and stripped of their beliefs ( that they have know their whole life ) or to stay in the only place that they know and raised with a certain belief and be well loved and cared for even though we believe their way of life is wrong to us ( or the state)??? As far as multiple wives , my dh says all the power to these men if they can handle all those wives and children and NOT be on welfare!! Just because I wouldn't be able to handle my husband being married to another woman and also being married to me ( and having children with her) doesn't mean it should not be right.I wasn't raised that way so I see it as something toatlly odd BUT these people truly believe what they are doing is the right way to do things!! Children have children everyday in this country ( some at age 13!!) and they make a motion picture out of it!! ( Yes I know that the kids were close in age , does it make it right then??) Yet when these girls have children ( some ) by older men that they are "married" to , people think it is wrong. Ok off my soapbox now!!
That's the way I've seen it presented here in TX. (Amy, you are not wrong!! Different media folks present it different ways. That's how they keep us guessing!)
CrystalCA. I have to agree with you alot. I agree we all have our own believes and thats the way God made us. Sometimes we might not like what someone says or does, but oh well it's a free world walk away or turn away. I think it depends on what or who the Media wants to pick on that time of the day or month. When I worked on a OB-GYN floor we had several girls come in at the age of 13 having babies and living at home, in a normal home they called iit. So, I think its how we are raised and what we want to believe. Theres alot out there to believe and see. Like going to the store and buying a candy bar many to choose from. Or a new car. We all have different taste like we have different believes.
A man friend from church got to go and councel with some of the children last week. He stayed for a week in El Dorado. He said there were girls(14, 15,16) who had 2 children and were pregnant again. He had my husband crying. I can't even imagine talking to these children. I agree that there are 13 year old who are having their 2nd child and are from "normal" homes, but these girls have been brought up modestly and are being forced to lay with 40 or 50 year old men. It would disgust me to think of my 12 yodd being with a man my dh age. This is so sad. At the same time it reminds me of the Branch Davidian. I am glad it wasn't handled that way again.
It will hit the fan when the DNA links the mom, dad, and kids. It won't matter how you believe- if an adult male gets an underage girl pregnant, he's in trouble. In my opinion, it's not even safe to give the kids back to their moms, because the moms are brainwashed. They'll allow their old enough daughters to be raped by whatever old man chooses her.
This is how I see it. These girls are not given a choice. They are being forced into "marriages" (some not legal, since they are under age) as soon as they hit puberty. There is nothing right about a sexual relationship that is forced.
Exactly. I really don't care if they found the 16 year old that called. There are a ton of 16 year old girls there that have been sexually assaulted by grown men. That is wrong on so many levels. Bottom line is in the state of Texas it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a child. Polygamy is also illegal.
Do you have a source for this? That the problem with "seemed" though. Cults tend to cultivate a certain perception of themselves and teach members how to present themselves to outsiders. The issue is exactly if these kids are well loved and cared for. But how does that lend what they do any creedence? How does it excuse breaking laws? We don't accept that when a drunk driver truly believes he's capable of driving or when people truly believe they're doing the right thing by flying planes into buildings. The two aren't comparable. The issue isn't simply girls having babies. It's girls being denied any choice. Being taken from their families and shipped off to older men and no one but the man making the phone call having any say in the matter. The problem is that this is happening in countries (mine too in Bountiful, B.C.) the have laws and concepts of individual rights that the FLDS practices run directly counter to. And that the law generally doesn't accept conviction or belief as a defense for breaking those laws.
These girls have been abused. I don't care what your beliefs are. God did NOT intend for children to be taken advantage of this way. 16 year old girls with 4 children! That's CRAZY! I don't think this is a case of multiple wives. I think this is more about the ages of them and the fact that they don't have a choice in the matter.
Well, Dawn responded to Crystal's post pretty much how I was going to. If polygamy is against the law than it is and those involved need to be held accountable. Also, those women ARE on welfare. The state is the one paying for their lifestyle. I don't see this as an attack on their religion or in general on religious freedom. I see this issue as girls too young to consent being forced into marriages and having babies. Now, things get sticky since the caller who leaked the story did not turn out to be a 16 year old girl. At least that is what CNN says they uncovered. That may blow the whole case. Who knows. Now, it does strike me funny that the state can come in and take every child on the property. There was no proof any of them were being abused. Even if some girls are being forced into marriages, we cannot punish before a crime is commited, so the children NOT involved maybe should not have been taken away. Yet, with allegations of abuse normally all children are removed from the home. So, there seems to be a ton of issues here. I truly hope of what they say is going on and what those who escaped are saying is happening that those children will now be kept safe.
I am a foster and adoptive parent who lives in TX and have had some experience with the legal on goings of CPS/Parents Rights/Terminations. I am not by far an expert but do have some firsthand knowledge. First off ... the lawyers are NOT free. Every child that comes into CPS custody get assigned and attorney ad litem. They do not work for free, they are paid for every hour they spend on the case. I know this b/c I was involved in my adoptive children's, biological parents terminations ... We got copies of the judge's approval for the ad litem payments every time we went to court. Additionally, if the parents cannot afford an atty, they get one that is also paid for by us, the taxpayer. Attorney ad litems are not free. Lastly, CPS is being very careful not to "strip these kids of their beliefs" So far, the kids are not going into normal family foster homes, they are going to facilities that can house and cater to their beliefs. There was a news clip about a facility close to Houston - they removed the TV and such. This is my opinion, these are a bunch of sick old men that are using a so called religion to allow them to be pedophiles. The cult leader, Warren Jeffs is in jail for this. For forcing a 14 year old to marry her 19 year old cousing. The girls says she was raped and testified under oath to that. He is also expected to stand trial in AZ for similar offenses.
I just said to my husband last night these guys have it made. Young girls to have sex with, and older, matronly wives to cater to them like dear old mom did. Creeps. Then they have the guts to kick out the young guys- their competition.
Not justifying ANYONE here, but keep in mind that these MEN have also been brought up this way. How many of them have been raised in this environment, have seen their dad interact with his many wives, has had multiple "moms" in the family, many of which may be younger than he they are. So to them pediphilia, as some call it, has actually been TAUGHT behavior. And in all honesty, how is it different from what the patriarch Jacob practiced, with his two wives bickering amoung each other, and offering him their maidservants to outdo the other? Sure, he had 12 sons, but it doesn't say how many daughters he had, too! Again, I AM NOT saying that I find this behavior "normal", but at the same time I don't want to be judgemental.
Everyone don't get to worked up about this story yet. I am not sure what the truth to this story is but I wouldnt believe all what the media says. They love to tell a woe story if they can, and try to make it sound as disgusting as they can get it to sell . Yellow Journalism at its best people. So far I havent seen any proof to what the media has been saying. I will wait to see what the evidence if they have any will be so far its all speculation on the media part. "Innocent before proven guilty" where has that gone? They havent even gone to trial yet heck they just got lawyers and already people thinking they are guilty and disgusting. All I know is if I was at my Homeschool co-op one day and the CPS came in to take our kids away because someone called out of the blue and not saying who they are to say one of us was abusing our kids I would be in shock and upset. Especially if they decided to take our kids away from us. Heck those women did a lot better then how I would have delt with it I would have given a couple of those CPS workers a bloody lip for trying to pull my kids away from me. I would have made it worse though hehe. Think about it would you like that to happen to you before you could even have your voice heard? To see your child scream and cry for you not to leave them. Could you take it? Of course the rest of the world would be saying stuff like, "Yah I know those homeschoolers were weird and different" those kids should be taken from them you know how they are always off by themselfs or with other homeschoolers they are just plain different. I think they could have handled it a better way. Sam
To what extent should other people's beliefs be allowed in terms of how they treat their children? Genital mutilation is expected to be performed on girls in some religions. Covering women from head to toe is expected in some religions. Disallowing girls or women to interact with others without a male present at all times is expected in some religions. Requiring young girls to 'marry' older men and start giving birth as soon as possible is expected in some religions. At some point, the law has to be respected. These kids don't even know who their parents are. The young girls already have multiple children. Their parents flaunted our laws when they committed polygamy. Why should they then scream about our not taking their word for it when they say they were doing nothing illegal with regards to these girls? I'm sure the parents truly don't think they've done anything wrong, but that doesn't mean they haven't. And I'm unwilling to simply take their word for it when there is enough evidence to indicate that they have.
