I'm sorry, I'm going to have to quit this thread and move on to something else. Steve, do you want to go out and kill your supper with your bare hands, since you're so Christian? Maybe you're so Christian that you can't stand to have ANY game shot and killed, since it's so against Christ, I mean. I think you should go out to the woods with a slingshot and kill your supper, like David killed Goliath. I just want to scream everytime I read some of these posts. Sorry.
I have a question for you Steve....When you say that outside of the US most Christians are left-wing, what do you mean? Personally my views of left-wing people are pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion. I can debate about social programs but those two issues are against what the Bible teaches so it is hard for me to accept someone who says they are a Christian, but believes that they are okay. Also, when you label these people as Christian, do you mean that they simply attend services weekly, or do they have a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. In other words are the Christian because they are not Jewish or Muslim or are they true followers? (Many people in the US claim the Christian designation, but only because their family is Christian, they go to mass sometimes, or they are not Jewish or Muslim. Asking whether someone is a Christian or not is not a very good question since it means different things to different people )
I agree with 99 percent of both your posts. My comment about guns being anathema among Christians outside the US is no more than an observation that armed resistance to the government would be unthinkable (even though some groups link institutional religion and ethnicity for political reasons). That was the context. Also, I agree completely about the real issue. For Christians, party affiliation ought to be irrelevant to the discussion. Sadly, though, it's not. The answer to the dismissal of Christian values is to live them ourselves. Selfish politicians are not the answer.
Sorry, Meg. The point I was making is that, in virtually every other country in the world, Christians would never consider the possibility of armed rebellion against those with whom they disagree. The very fact that the topic is discussed is a uniquely American phenomenon. I wasn't meaning to make a general statement about the rights and wrongs of using guns for other reasons.
I don't know that I'm considered left wing or right wing. My beliefs, which I believe to be Biblically based, are that if you want something you work for it. I do believe that social programs could be offered as a temporary crutch but how many people use them as life support instead of the temporary measure that they were intended to be? (In the community I live in, there are generations of families who have never worked a day in their lives because it's too easy to be dependent on social programs (no incentives to get off the system) and I personally see that as wrong. There are some families whose monthly income (on social programs) is higher than my combined family working income - that's just wrong). I believe in helping anyone who needs to be helped but I can only help someone who wants to help themselves first. lol, I think it depends on who you ask because some still think this of him :roll: (I will admit that when he was first elected in 2008, that was the general feeling from a lot of Canadians just by the things he said and his actions). Only God knows who the anti-Christ is. It isn't for any of us to decide
Let me give two examples: 1) In India, states that have elected communist leaders have traditionally been those with a higher percentage of Christians. It's because of Christ's mandate to help the poor and needy - and these are very real issues in a country like India. 2) In Britain, where I grew up, Christians promote social welfare programs to help the poor - indeed, are among the loudest proponents. They led the anti-nuclear movement in the 70s and 80s. They are also for big cuts in defense budgets and for stricter gun control. The thinking in these countries is that the government is the best vehicle to institute such policies, not individuals. Thinking in the US is a bit different, and I agree with the principle that churches should be the main driver, not politicians. HOWEVER...do our churches solve the problem of no health insurance? or helping immigrants in desperate need of help? or providing support to minority groups that suffer discrimination? Some do, yes, but not to the level that the government can. Hence, I suspect, why Christians overseas tend to be more left-wing in their politics. More than anything, this ought to be a wake up call for church leaders.
Therein lies part of the problem. Because of the political process, we have to accept either none or all of a party's platform. In my experience, Christians overseas push strongly for policies consistent with their interpretation of the Bible. They view social programs as consistent but some other policies as inconsistent. For right-wing parties, they reject the aggressiveness and lack of support to the poor and needy, even though they may support traditional values. Which are more important at the ballot box? Many would not support pro-gay marriage or pro-abortion. On the other hand, plenty of Christians around the world do a lot to help gays. In the context of the church, they may not permit gay marriage; however, neither will they accept social ostracism or discrimination against gays. This is no different than some churches in the US not allowing the marriage of divorcees while in no way criticizing or discriminating against them in society in general. I mean true Christian believers.
Personally, I can't wait for the 2016 election, and here's why. The Republican candidate will likely be Chris Christie. Now, how many of the Antichrist speculators will turn on the Republican candidate whose name, after all, is Christopher Christie?
I think the problem lies in (at least in my experience) Christians getting their politics and religion all swirled around. Of course, Jesus is supposed to influence everything that a believer does. So for a Christian, they ARE unable to be separated. However, often Christians expect that the country is just naturally supposed to do everything the way that Jesus would do them. Of course it won't because it is run by sinful folks. but we are judging unbelievers by the standard of Christ. That's unfair. Of course Jesus wants us to treat divorcees and gays and everyone else kindly and lovingly, but we are not to embrace those sins in the church, following his commands in the holy scripture. But expecting unbelievers to see sin as sin and scorn it is an unrealistic expectation. While we can vote according to our values, we can't expect the rest of the world to understand our views. and you know what??? Although people complain about Obama being anti-Christian, I really don't think the other guy was so pro-Christian and godly values myself. Our nation was not founded on having a church or particular religious viewpoint run the nation. It was founded on the idea that the people would have a say in the operation of the government. So when the majority of the nation is un-Christian, don't be surprised when the elected officials reflect that.
And that's the difference between the European and American mind-set. Our country was founded on armed resistance to the government. The monarchy mentality was never really part of the United States. Even in the colonial days, we fought against the "lord of the manor" concept(though less so in the South). The church had always been involved in social change here UNTIL the government took it over, pretty much as part of the New Deal. But caring for the poor and enabling the poor are NOT the same thing, nor should they be confused. Even Biblically, Ruth was given the gleanings from the fields, but she still had to go out and pick them up herself. The Government has actually tied the hands of the church as far as social issues go with regulations. For example, the inner city church we use to attend no longer can get food from the Mid-Ohio Food Bank. That has cut our food giving to the needy tremedously. Why? Because we must record the name AND ADDRESS of everyone we give food to. In other words, we could be totally shut down and fined if we were to give it to the homeless, which is a large part of those who come in our doors. And that was AFTER we went to all kinds of trouble building new shelves, etc. to meet their othe requirements. Did you know there's a church I read about just this past week who is fighting over tax exempt. The government is claiming that part of the building should be taxed, because it's not being used for "religious" reasons. The church claims it's still part of its "ministry", and is used all week long for "ministry".
It isn't quite that simple though. You have the right wing against abortion, but nothing has ever been done about it. Personally, I only really hear about it in context of an election. Gay marriage seems to be up to the individual states. Marriage as a defined by a government and a marriage as defined by a church can be different. I believe in separation of church and state. On the left side you have the social programs to help the poor. Sure some abuse the system, but I'd rather have abusers mixed in than to cut it for those who really need it. Also on the left side you have the military issue. It was Remembrance Day at my church last week. We paused at the 11th hour to remember the dead. We remembered them to remember the cost of war. 90% of war victims are civilians. Bombs don't discriminate between children and soldiers. In our country we are far from the horrors of war. As a Christian do I support the guy who says he is against abortion and does nothing or do I support the guy who doesn't want to increase the number of bombs and attack more places? It would be great if the church would do so much that the poor didn't need help from the government. Truth told, poverty was much more rampant before the government stepped in. In the USA there seems to be the belief among Christians that "god helps those who help themselves." That statement is not from the Bible, but ancient Greece. Our God helps those who don't deserve it. Grace is unmerited favor. As Christians, shouldn't that be our perspective? Instead I keep hearing Christians degrade the poor saying they want something for nothing. I don't get it.
(Still haven't read the good things about what Obama has done for our country the last 4 years. Is there anything?)
Embassy, I don't know where you live, but abortion is NOT an "election time only" issue! Where I live it's big all the time. We have friends that are very active in pro-life events...rallys, "life lines", picketing clinics on occassion.... The reason you only hear about it at election time is because that's the only time the media will cover it, and even then it's mostly to put the pro-life people in a bad light! As far as war goes, I'm against it. Can you honestly say you know anyone who is "for" war? But sometimes it is a necessary evil. I'd like to see our troops doing what they were originally designed to do...homeland security. Defensive, not offensive. The larger the system, the more likely it will be abused and people will get lost in it. That's why the feds have no business in welfare. Leave it up to the local government and private organizations. Let them actually SEE the people they're helping and be invoved in their lives. That way it can be set up to meet individual needs. If someone honestly can't work, there are social workers, etc., that know the situation and can deal with it. If someone is lazy and jus taking advantage, the social workers know that, too, and can deal with that.
I don't support any politician, so I'll try to list objectively: 1) Pulled troops out of Iraq and reduced considerably the number of young American soldiers killed overseas. 2) Saved thousands of jobs in the auto industry, and industries that supply the auto industry (although I would argue that short-term gain may lead to long-term pain). 3) Put in place programs that have saved many from home foreclosure and allowed those "under water" to reduce their mortgage payments. 4) Allowed young people, especially those without work, to remain on their parents' medical insurance policies, and ensured that preexisting conditions may not be used to deny medical coverage. 5) Used the "big stick" of government to curb some of the immoral and deceitful ways of making money by investment bankers on Wall Street. 6) Done a reasonable job of ensuring the deep recession we were in did not become a full-blown depression. 7) Extended the timeline for benefits when the number of long-term unemployed has gone through the roof. 8) Improved the image abroad of the USA - especially in the countries of Western Europe. Now, to balance the equation, let's do the same for the eight years in power of Dubya. Would you like to start?
