We're giving the government a reason to regulate homeschooling

Unfortunately, yes. Activists have been pushing to either pull evolution books out of some school districts or, more often, insisting that ID books be taught in PS. This has led to quite a number of lawsuits, every one of which stopped these activists in their tracks. This is what led to the lawsuit I mentioned earlier - and the video at that link is worth watching. The science of Intelligent Design was demolished in the courtroom, leading the (evangelical Christian) judge to keep ID textbooks out of the PS classroom. The more activists make a "big hairy deal" of it, the more resistance it is going to invoke.

Why? Isn't she just taking people for a ride, wrecking the reputation of Christians in general for the sake of her personal ambition? This is just the type of phenomenon to which I referred. Her "supporters" get branded with the same iron as she does.

No. She wrote something in the public domain supportive of Christians, and the words sounded very good. These were quoted in a sermon. It just goes to show that actions count for far more than words, and we must be very careful about aligning ourselves with those who make the headlines. When they deservedly get mud thrown at them, it falls on us too.

It's largely my fault. Yes, science means a lot to me. My PhD research work was exciting and challenging and a lot of fun. I got to meet a number of well-renowned scientists, published a lot of papers, spoke at international conferences, etc. - and I respect the scientific method very much. Christians have always been at the forefront of mainstream science, so my admiration today is for Francis Collins and others who are pushing back the frontiers of science in exciting new areas - despite being (metaphorically) beaten up in some churches for it. Sorry to let my background get the better of me.

 

Yeah...while I do think other theories should be taught in school...most ID is so closely related to Christian thought that it's not really science. So, we open ourselves up to a classroom spending a year studying how every religion believes the world would be created. While I disagree with evolution and that it is taught as fact...I think this is a touchy issue altogether.

I agree. That is why I never claim her side even if I do agree with her. I steer clear of that craziness.

I posted once on how many at my church love this preacher who is a huge KJV advocate...and he does know a thing or two. However, he goes off the deep end and says the gvt. has aliens stored in facilities...says very insulting and sickening raciest remarks...and insults anyone who does not agree with him. He wrecks the KJV stand just by being associated with it because of his attitude. I cannot believe that just because the guy stands up for the bible, has a few good things to say, and teaches dispensations properly that one can still associate themselves with such an ungodly character. It shames me that people at my church like the guy. Ruckman is his name..look him up..you will be sickened by his racist remarks. I guess I shouldn't say many love him...but enough that it gets under my skin. Good thing my preachers don't preach like him.

Your background is awesome! You are a very faithful man to the Lord in a field that largely denies him...that's character and true love on your part. A Christian who is a scientist is not always easy to come by. While we may not always agree...I love your point of view and you have challenged me sometimes and opened my eyes at other times.

 

I see that this thread is never-ending and that Steve truly believes we all should teach evolution in fear of government interference, so I am wondering what other things he feels we should be teaching our children in the effort to safeguard homeschooling. I mean, I have a feeling that evolution is not the one and only thing that we should in fear about. Perhaps we should be teaching sex education public school style, too?

I just wanted you to know that I am not ignoring you on this; today was my errand day for this week. The reason I purposely (and I state this every time someone tries to pull me into that type of discussion) do not go point-to-point on evolution is because I have done it in depth a number of times over the years, enough times to recognize it as largely a waste of my time, which does not serve my Lord; in fact, it detracts from me doing so. At this point in my life, I would say that I am resigned to this being the only true fact about the subject:

We all believe what we choose to believe.

 

I am sorry to disappoint you but my user name is not a boast, simply a reminder to me, and I do not see my post as a slur at all. It is just as related to the original post, perhaps more so, as all these other rabbit trails we have been on. Just how far should we go in how and what we teach our children to line up with what is acceptable by our government, that is what is taught in public schools, out of fear so that the government will not interfere in homeschooling?

 

First of all Seeking, I didn't get that impression from your user name. I got it from previous posts you have made.
Second, I did take it as a slur. You may not have ment it that way, but that is exactly how it struck me. And if I took that statement as a slur, don't you think there is a possibility that others might have also. Or that possibly those outside faith would also preceive it as such and say to themselves, "There go Christians again making nasty statements."
The point was not about being acceptable, it was about drawing attention to ourselves by our words, action or what we teach our children.
If we are drawing attention to ourselves we are taking attention away from Christ, which damages His reputation and drive others away from Him. In certain cirrcumstances it puts us on the civic government's radar screen, which sets hsers in general and Christians in particular up for trouble. If I'm pointing at myself I'm in trouble 2 ways. One for not pointing to Christ and two for making a specticule of myself.
Marty

 

I understand your feelings. Here is the problem: The reason that young earth creationism is drawing attention to homeschoolers (which is really unfair since we know not all homeschoolers are taught it) is because it does not in any way line up with evolution, which is considered the only acceptable theory/fact taught in government/public schools. This may be today's battle.

Tomorrow it could be--and considering the looming UN Convention on Rights of the Child this could be a very real possibility--that how the homeschooling parent approaches sex education would be the next thing to stand out and draw attention to ourselves. As Steve suggested in an previous post, gays would not feel welcome in a church. Why? Perhaps because many Christians are teaching their children that being gay is not God's design, facing down the scientific fact that DNA proves that some are born that way. In another thread, a fifteen-year-old girl had an abortion (during school hours?) after the school called a taxi for her without her parents knowledge as was legal in that particular state. Governments could say that homeschool children would not...enjoy, for lack of a better word, that same privilege and perhaps something should be done about that, the government should step in to be sure they do....

Do you see that the point I was making is that if we are to homeschool according to fear of the government further regulating it, then we have far more to truly fear than just the controversy of evolution and that we cannot even have homeschoolers trying to govern other homeschoolers?

 

Let me clarify the context in which I wrote that so that it's not inadvertently misconstrued. As Christians, our principal goal in life is to proclaim the gospel message. Many churches hold gospel services where that message is preached loudly and clearly. It's not our job to judge people's personal situations as a condition of entering a church to hear the gospel message. Neither does it matter what are their political opinions, their lifestyle choices, their personal morals, or anything else.

May we never hear what a prostitute once lamented. She was doing drugs, was homeless, and was in desperate need of help. Someone asked why she didn't visit a church for help. Her response? "Why ever would I visit a church? They would do nothing but condemn me when what I really need is help." Jesus went out of his way to spend time with "tax collectors and sinners." If he were walking the earth today, I suspect he'd be spending time with just those people we would prefer not to be visiting our church. May we have the faith to know that "his power can make the foulest clean."

This was the context of my comment.

 

First...Seeking, I fully support your posts..not that need me to or ask for an endorsement. I think you bring up valid points. I, too, find the evolution discussion one that distracts more than adds to my walk...it's wasteful and often fruitless. yet, I allow myself to respond..shame on me.

Steve: There are plenty of churches out there that help the people of all races, creeds, and situations. My church does not have a ministry to deal with drug addiction but we would NOT turn our backs on someone with that need. Because my church is fundamental independent baptist people make false assumptions that we are strict or that we will judge...or that women all have to wear skirts. My preacher is always telling us to witness to everyone and not just those who look like us or those we are comfortable with. we are challenged to witness to all types of people in all kinds of situations. Jackie's church deals with many desperate individuals who need help and would be like the prostitute you mentioned. There are misconceptions on both sides.

In fact, once a woman came to my church, she had nothing. Her boyfriend left her in a strange city...she was lived about 2 hours away. She had no money, no cell, nothing. She was wearing a tank top and jean capris. She walked up to the church and asked to use the phone. We invited her to stay since Sunday School was just about to start...and offered her breakfast and coffee. She was free to use the phone and leave as well. However, she was upset and appreciated the time I spent with her so she stayed. She got saved! No one approached her to get saved...no one pointed her out. After the service, she decided it was what she needed. We then took to her lunch and bought her a bus ticket to get home. This is just one of many stories we can tell about how we have helped in the Lord's name. I KNOW many churches feel the same. I think the judging goes both ways. People often think that because I stay home with my kids I think working moms are bad...lol. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Now, I have a gay friend. Surprised? lol. He lives in CA. He expressed that he felt strange walking into church. I can tell you that even though my church opposes homosexuality...he would be welcome. However, we would NOT welcome his lifestyle. He would NOT be able to join the church if he lived with a lover. However, we do not allow couples to join the church if they are living together either. My pastor is very old school...I thank God for that. Funny thing...he never comes across as judging and people decide to get right with the Lord after talking to him. His love for the Lord and desire to serve is infectious.

I see NOTHING wrong with a church standing on the truth. The bible is a two edged sword and sometimes it hurts when it cuts. Sometimes that is what is needed. People need to break free from the bondage of sin. They cannot do that or get saved if they do not know they are a sinner. I changed some of my ways in order to be right with Christ. I did not feel judged...I felt freed. If someone is ready and willing to serve...they will feel the same. Pride and self love keep many using the old excuse that they don't feel welcome.

now, are there uppity churches? Yes. No one is perfect.

 

Praise the Lord for that, AR. We agree on these points. In fact, there's little we disagree on. In my previous post, I was simply clarifying the unfortunate recasting of something I wrote earlier. Nowhere - nowhere - have I suggested that we respond to government policies by watering down the church's teaching. Nowhere have I suggested that we somehow compromise to keep the government off our backs. Nowhere have I suggested we accept behavior in the body of Christ that violates the teachings of Christ.

What I have suggested, and it's the title of the thread, is that when we go out of our way to draw unwarranted attention to ourselves and our points of difference, when we try to force our opinions on public school districts, and so on, over matters unrelated to the gospel and where we may be proved wrong, then don't be surprised if there's a backlash. The apostle Paul made it clear in several passages: We are to keep a low profile and to strive to live at peace with all men. There's a lot of wisdom in that.

 

Steve...I get ya and agree. I know you were not suggesting to water down the gospel. I just have a big mouth and feel the need to clear things up. It did kinda sound like you wanted to go soft..LOL..so I figured I'd step in. How lovely of me, right? LOL. I don't want people to ever get the impression that you should be okay with sin. I think it's all too easy in this world to be okay with sin or just brush it off. I know, I do at times. Then again, we are always passionate about what we struggle with. lol.

 

There is also wisdom in what it does not say. How can we make peace with all men when we strive to cause discord with fellow believers?

 

The verse doesn't say anything about making peace with all men. It says: "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with all men."

It's the Christian's responsibility to live at peace with others.
Why are you assuming expressing a concern is striving to cause discord with fellow believers? Why assume everyone who wishes to keep a low profile of being motivated by fear? Why assume that everyone who does not want to draw attention to themselves is doing so out of fear?
How is the desire to live at peace wrong?
I am very aware that my actions, words and how I homeschool can detract from Christ. And yes I am willing to modify those in order to not be a stumbling block to others. I am not doing it out of fear for any other human being. But I am willing to do it in order to glorify God.
Marty

 

It looks like this conversation might also be touching upon a Christian's role in public life and if it's really possible to keep "under the radar" as homeschoolers. There's enough diversity on these topics to start some new threads.

Um... Actually, the vote still seems to out on this one, according to "Universe Today," apparently a secular site:

"The irony is that after all the disputes over these different theories, neither one is necessarily correct. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity upset both models. New evidence has also shown that the Solar System’s center of gravity is not the exact center of the Sun. This means that either model is acceptable regardless of the fundamental differences between the theories. Astronomers use both the heliocentric and geocentric models for research depending on which theory makes their calculations easier. It definitely seems as if some things are relative after all."

Note especially the phrases, "either model is acceptable..." and "Astronomers use both the heliocentric and geocentric models for research..." I've read that NASA uses both models.

Another fascinating tidbit from the same site:

"Astronomical clocks usually represent the solar system using the geocentric(Earth centered) model. The center of the dial is often marked with a disc or sphere representing the Earth, located at the center of the solar system. The Sun is then represented by a golden sphere, shown rotating around the Earth once a day around a 24 hour analog dial." I don't know why they do this, but I found it interesting! Not?

 

Marty, I read the posts. Although all were respectful, this is a topic that brought discord among believers.

I am not saying anyone else who wishes to live in peace is motivated by fear to do so, only that in making his point he was using a fear-based argument: "We're giving the government a reason to regulate homeschooling." The title alone sounds like a scare tactic to me.

Living in peace is not wrong, but I would point out that peace means different things to different people. To some peace means nonaggression and to others pacifism and others it means neutrality, agreement, harmony, or tranquility. Most parents might just equate "peace" with "quiet" on any given day.

I personally do not have the same idea as to what is peace as most do. I accept that I cannot be at peace with the world, because I am a Christian, and what is the world but people? I accept it is the condition in human nature not to be at peace itself, therefore not others either. As I see it, there is only peace, in this existence, if one is willing to surrender his will and rights to another...yes, I mean enslavement. Do not misunderstand me or misquote me as I am not condoning slavery at all. I am just pointing out something about human nature. As long as there is a master and a willing slave, there is peace. Equality of itself is plagued with all the things that do not support peace. Perhaps that is why we are asked to willing accept the Lord as our Master.

 

Seeking my Lord and Marty, go ahead with your discussion. You are bringing out some important points. We can discuss the impossibility of having a complete understanding about various space models another time. I'm sorry I interrupted. *stepping into the background here*

 

God said we are ALL equal, we have ALL have sinned. Sin doesn't support peace. Equality has nothing to do with it.

P.H.- Please don't run away. I'd love to discuss various space models!
Marty

 

I did not mean to ignore your post; I am just pressed for time right now. It is a fascinating subject. I researched it years ago and knew some about NASA geocentric models, which is logical really. If you have everything in the universe in motion and you are taking off from a specific point and landing on a specific point on a planet, the best way to make your calculations is to use a model where the planet is stationary. However, I have to admit that I am not up to date on the latest information in either model.

Then there are the various models of the atom too, but as I recall in my school days, there was not but one taught in school books. Then there is the model of the bipolar magnet, which is completely false in all physics texts still to this day, but I am not going to get into my own research. However, it is significant since the earth itself is a rather large bipolar magnet with varied effects on living systems, even to influencing basic cultural differences between the northern and southern hemispheres.

 

I agree in that spiritual equality has nothing to do with the equality born of human nature.

As to the Master and servant roles: Why did God chose only Moses to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt? Why were only the sons of Levi to be priests? Why did Jesus have an inner circle He picked to be his disciples? Why did the Lord choose to stop Paul from persecuting the Christians and then become one of the greatest of Christian leaders? We may have been created with a perfect equality in mind and we may all are equal in our sin, but I do not see equality in God's choices for each of his followers, do you? He is the Master so He can give special attention, consideration, authority, etc., to whomever of His servants He chooses, right?

Now as to the passage in Scripture, let's look at it in context:

It appears to me that this in answer to the believers being persecuted for being believers. This was not about "keeping a low profile," because the believers were already being persecuted. This was more about not seeking revenge and not cursing those who sought to harm them and ministering to them despite the evil being done to them. Most likely these Christians were going about spreading the Gospel as Jesus commanded us all to do.

I don't think it fits as neatly as a reason to advised Christians to not to teach or believe in young earth creationism.

Another thought is if we pull this one verse out of context, then are we not condemning all Christians who serve in the military?

 

I think the point of believers and discord, made by Seeking, is being made quite clear. I agree with Seeking that this thread maybe respectful but yet it causes discord. Let's move on...P.H. is bringing up some very interesting points.