This isn't exactly a fluff question but I though it may be an interesting conversation... Every night at dinner we read and discuss a scripture as a family. The other night we were talking about the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-5) and wondering what most think. Do you think we are living in the last days? And, what does that mean to you?
Read that in the context of the whole letter the "last days" reference sounds less prophetic and more like a turn of phrase or an unspecific statement to reassure Timothy that those people who may be causing trouble will pay for it in the end. Not a vision of what will happen at the end times but more, "Look, be assurred of your own goodness and know that these other creeps will get what's coming to them." Keep in mind my perspective comes from a liberal or moderate biblical scholarship POV but I don't think Paul's letter should be read as prophecy. After all, he was writing letters to congregations, most likely in response to specific problems they were experiencing. He likely had no idea they would be preserved and be part of our Bible. There ARE prophetic and apocolyptic writings in the Bible but I don't think Paul's fit into that. His are more the general corespondence of the emerging church and we shouldn't read too much into certain words because we know they have a special meaning in other parts of the Bible. Anyhow, I thought I'd offer that. It's likely different from other views here but it's sometimes fun to see different views.
I also believe we are living in the last days. In Acts 2:16-17 Peter preached that they were living in the last days then. He tells the people that the things they are seeing are things that were prophesied by Joel to happen in the last days. So if they were living in the last days then, then we are certainly living in the last days now. As for the verses in II Timothy, I don't know if I consider them prophetic, maybe they are. I do believe that they apply to people today, but I also believe it applied to those times, too. What does it mean to me? That we need to be vigilent, and keep our eyes on Jesus, study the word of God, pray. All the things we know to do and so often I know I'm guilty of putting them off or putting them last. Not specifically on those verses but I believe that there are so many distraction today and deception is great in the world that it would be very easy to head down the wrong path and think we're still on the right one.
I think 2 Timothy 3:15 was likely not written by Paul, inasmuch as it is one of the pastoral epistles, which textual critics have noted the likely inauthenticity of.
I dont know, i dont think anyone could ever know for sure who wrote what unless you were alive back then, and I have to believe in the Truth i know to be, which is the Bible is God's Word, and that is what i need to live my life by.
What the commentor was refering to were the opinions of textual critics, liberal and moderate biblical scholars. In that community the consensus seems to be that 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul. The scholars generally examine early texts and compare the content and style to letters they're sure are by Paul to determine if they're genuine Paul. This doesn't mean they're fradulent. The practice of writing something and attributing it to a mentor or someone the author admired was common and not ness. seen as something wrong. The letters likely still (if you accept that POV) come from an early church leader or figure. They also still made the Bible. The early Church still determined that those letters like Timothy said things that communicated valuable information about the church. So even if you do accept that many of Paul's epistles aren't actually Paul's like I do that's an interesting piece of information but neither here nor there in some respects. It's still in the Bible and it made it into the Bible because (again, from my POV) because the early Church felt it was important and needed to be preserved. So it's still absolutely relevent and still needs thoughtful discussion. Hope that helps and doesn't confuse. It's pretty different from conservative scholarship and interpretation.
First, I think Paul wrote this book...but that's just me and oh..what it says in the first verse. lol. It is believed to be written by Paul even in the face of those who contest it. But this is not the point so no need to get into it. Secondly, I do think it has everything to do with the end times. The "last days" begins with the birth of Christ and will end in His return. "Perilous times" indicates what will characterize the final days of the church age. You see, Paul, Timothy and those in the NT thought they were living in the end times as well....which they were and we are. In any event, even as it relates to us, I do think we are living in the end times and I do think this passage refers to it. So, what does that mean for me? It means we are to do everything we can to add to the kingdom and keep our eyes on Christ. We don't have the time to get lost in the world.
Yes, i too believe it is all Paul, but im not a biblical scholar, so i have no evidence. But I will not say that I believe someone is wrong for believing the opposite. I believe that is kind of a gray area, that doesnt determine who goes to heaven,lol.
Yes, but why does the church as effectively descended from Athanasius hold a monopoly over which Biblical texts are "useful"? Why have we rejected the texts of the Marcionites and Ebionites as heretical, for instance? It certainly does. And similarly, many of the Gnostic texts declared heretical by Irenaeus, Origen, Athanasius, and others were allegedly written by Jesus's apostles. Do you believe those accounts simply on the grounds that their authors claimed that they were Jesus's apostles?
:roll: FRDB Dear. It's what you're looking for. Ava Rose, I'm making some tea. Would you like some? Brownies anyone? They're the fudgy kind. I think a brownie is not a real brownie unless it's the dense, fudgy kind.
I'll be glad to take some of your brownies, Dawn! I could make some of Faythe's strawberry bread to go along with it if you'd like!
I'm sorry, you are new here...when I said that it was a poke at Dawn. lol. I was not trying to make a solid point, just playing with my favorite agnostic. Besides this thread was not started to debate the authority of God's word. In my opinion, it is the ultimate authority so no need for me to engage in unfruitful discussions or debates. Dawn, I'll take the tea and a few brownies. Anything I can provide? Hey, maybe some cucumber sandwiches...we need a little health food. lol.
Aw shucks. Yes, I got the impression is was more about what it meant for people reading it. Even I got a little off track there. Health food? Never heard of it. But I actually do LOVE cucumber sandwiches!
Well, thanks for the thoughts. I guess what I was really wondering (those scriptures just prompted the thought) was how often those that believe we are in the last days think about it. I believe that we are in the last days and it effects how I live my life including my decision to homeschool (but isn't the whole reason or even the biggest part of it). I was just wondering how much it impacts the lives of others. :angel:
Honestly, I don't think it impacts lives...including myself enough. I really want to feel the urgency but I tend to get lost in my blink of an eye day.
