Does tolerance trump truth, or are both "ditches" on this issue unloving? I need help to understand someone who is very dear to me. I also need to test my own logic. Our family (Hubby, myself, and our kiddos), as most people, carry both joy and sorrow--more joy than sorrow these days. In sharing a situation this morning with a dear person, I was unprepared for the response. A couple of decades ago, society in general (and too often, Christians also) would have met the facts with scandal, condemnation, gossip, and perhaps ridicule--little mercy, helpfulness, or love. In recognizing the cruelty of that response, it looks like many people, (Christians included), have leaped across the road into the other ditch and refuse to call much of anything "wrong," thinking that might be unloving. No standards. No absolutes. No sin, and therefore, no need of a Savior. It's almost like today the biggest sin in the world is calling sin a sin! Background info: 1. I am the biggest sinner on this forum. I have no doubt about that; so let no one think that I think I'm "better than." 2. Our family is blessed with being surrounded by supportive, loving people. Not totally. Not all of our acquaintences are, to be sure, but some are unusually kind and supportive and would never want to say a single word that sounded hurtful or negative. This info. will help you understand that a person I spoke with this morning wanted only to bless me and perhaps protect my children from any condescending or condemning attitude from myself; although I can't find any like that in my heart. "But," I said, "If they don't do things according to God's standards, they won't receive all of the blessings they could otherwise." The person said something like: "Well, you don't know. People do things differently these days. What works for someone might not work for someone else. We really can't say what's right or what they should or shouldn't do..." I don't think they "heard" it when I said there are certain absolutes of right and wrong. There are certain things about which it is possible to know what pleases the Lord. She wanted to show that she loves me and our children; but surely truth can be spoken in love. (Not that it always needs to be spoken. Not that even God imposes His Truth on people in this life. Not that people don't have the right to reject truth and walk in error. That's their privilege. But neither do I have to say something is OK that the Bible says isn't.) There's a big difference between truth and condemnation. We don't have to deny rightness and wrongness and say that everything is OK in order to be loving, do we? To me, a great injustice would be to ignore someone's need of the Cross--not only in Redemption, but also in our daily walk. No harsh words were said, and things are peaceful between us, but I've been bewildered. Obviously that person and I have vastly differing views of love, of truth, of sin, of the authority of the Bible, of the Cross--maybe even of God. Is my logic wrong? I need to probe this issue and do some soul searching. Any thoughts would be helpful--if you can't affirm my logic, then at least you would be helping me understand others who are very dear to me. Thanks!
There is an absolute truth. Whether or not it is believed or followed does not mean it does not exist! There once was a bumper sticker that said "God Said It, I Believe It, That Does It". My husband changed it and cut out the "I Believe It" part out. I always thought that was funny. But he was like, it's true whether or not I believe it! So...YES...there is absolute truth. And YES, there is such a wishy washyness in the Christian world today in the guise of tolerance and acceptance. Granted, the sinful do not come to Him when there are those shouting "sinner sinner" at them. (he who is without may cast THAT first stone). BUT, loving to the point of not telling the TRUTH is just as bad. Did that help?
Jesus had no trouble calling sin sin. I'm not suggesting we go around calling people hypocrites to their face like He did, of course. He could see their hearts, and we only see their behavior. But He didn't whitewash sin, and I don't think we should either. Of course we deal with the people lovingly. We are all sinners, and none of us are even a bit better than the next person. But sin is sin, and wrong is wrong, and God is right. I agree with you.
I agree with you, as well. The whole concept of "tolerance" just sickens me. I can tolerate something without believing it to be correct. I can tolerate the fact that my good friend is a lesbian. But she knows full well that I do not believe what she is doing is right. This world, however, seems to think that tolerance means having to fully accept the beliefs of everyone. The whole "everyone has their own way" crap is just that: crap. I for one am fed up. I fully see why churches in the last days will find themselves with "Ichabod" written on their doors.
Prairie, I agree with you. Sin is sin! No matter how you cut it! "Tolerance" says that calling sin for what it is is wrong. But this attitude, for a lack of better words, is also mentioned in the Word. People, Christians too, are going to turn from the truth. Jesus came and set an example to be followed for a reason. People compromise because the Bible comes against their desires. I completely agree with you.
Yes, Krista, what you and the others said does help. I felt like I had been reprimanded because I tried to represent a situation honestly. Yet no harsh words had been spoken to me. It was strange. It's almost like the "tolerance factor" is a skill to be learned and that those of us who don't speak that language are uncouth, at best. So, I've been coming here to read each of your responses to assure myself that I'm not the only one sickened by this phenomena. Thanks so much! I've been debating with myself and wondering: Does anything at all qualify as morally wrong to the politically correct? I think so, but how could it? If tolerance is their chief virtue, how did it get into that position when no other value qualifies? And what right, then, do they have to impose that upon others? Isn't that extremely contradictory? And at what point would they say it is proper to say anything? What is my responsibility to the people I care about? (I guess this is veering off into the topic of what my "jurisdiction" is. There are those who claim that even our children shouldn't be under our influence. They call this "indoctrination" and say that they would be better raised free of parental prejudices.) Take any value--anything that people care about, like cruelty to animals. Most people would agree that that's wrong. But who can say wrong? I mean if something can be OK for someone and not OK for someone else, then where is the measuring stick? Consensus of the people? Rule of a dictator? The "state?" Mob rule? Or God and the standards that line up with His character? I am earnestly trying to find the logic in a Christian claiming that we can seldom, if ever, decide what is right for any other person. This would not be bothering me so much today if I hadn't felt so rebuked, in a kind way, of course. Also, what you said, Patty, about turning from the truth concerns me, and I've been praying for people I know who believe that. This type of thing is even harder to confront than outright blatant sin. I mean, it sounds so kind and loving...
EVERYTHING must be tolerated in today's world. Everything, that is, except tollerance of Christians, of course! (Removes tongue from cheek...) Hugs to you! Hold strong!
The only thing that is morally wrong to people with this mindset is anything that steps on anyone else's toes. In other words, murder is wrong, because it affects someone else. Telling a Muslim they need Jesus is wrong because it affects someone else. And animals are included, so cruelty to them is wrong because it affects someone else. It goes along with this recent concept in society that we are each our own island. Kings and Queens of our domain with no jurisdiction over any other island. Not even those of our own children. But it also has led to this odd isolation. One that looks suspiciously at a neighbor bearing a plate of cookies, but allows for the free exchange of personal information to internet strangers.
The best way to confront moral relativism [of which 'tolerance' according to progressives' definition] is to point out its own rather serious flaws. First, relativists say, "There are no absolutes." Well, that's an absolute statement. Either it's true or it's not. So, clearly there ARE absolutes. Then, they say, "Who are you to say who's right or wrong?" The best response is to ask, "Are you saying I'm wrong for saying that 'x' is wrong?" If so, then who are THEY to say that I'M wrong? You could go on and on with such applications in logic to point out their own hypocrisy, but in a simpler case, you can always point to certain behaviors and ask if the person believes those things to be wrong--- and if they believe the person committing the behavior should be held to account. For example, is a person wrong who stalks a seven year old girl, kidnaps, molests, and then murders her? If so, then why? And who are THEY to say that's wrong? How intolerant! Of course, it never hurts to simply direct people who claim to be Christian to the New Testament. Not only did Christ call people out on their behaviors, but so did Paul [look at Corinthians]. If you're a Christian, you've been given authority through discernment to call a sin "sin." We are to do so in love, but we are still to do it. A great place to find resources to combat moral relativism is www.str.org. My husband recently did a study on this subject at our church using apologetic materials from this site.
Oh! These thoughts are all so good! And thanks for the hugs, too, Jen! Shelly I think you highlighted a key point when you said: First, relativists say, "There are no absolutes." Well, that's an absolute statement. Either it's true or it's not. So, clearly there ARE absolutes. Let's take that a step further: If there are no absolutes, and if that is a true statement, than that statement, itself, must have at least one exception to it, meaning that there has to be at least One Absolute in the world, which would mean the statement is false! Wow! Don't you love it? (Either that, or following logic to its conclusion drives you to distraction!) Actressdancer, your comments are helpful in defining what boundaries relativism respects: anything that doesn't interfere with someone else. Like you say, that leads to isolation, though, and also, it's confusing. Speeding, for example, hurts another person, so we need speed limits. Taking drugs leads to crime. And who defines where another person's rights begin? Apparently unborn babies don't count. That way of thinking is so confusing. I'll take one of Kbabe's bumper stickers! That makes a lot more sense! Dd and I were on the road today and heard a speaker on the radio say that people have "selective hearing" when it comes to the Bible. They hear the part about our Loving God, but they don't hear the part about our Righteous Judge. That seemed applicable to this conversation. So, there is at least some consensus about absolutes! Yeah! Now, about our responsibility to others... I remember hearing about a man who lived in his little house close to Mt. St. Helens when she was about to blow. People were asked to evacuate. Help was sent in to provide transportation for those who needed it, but the little old man wanted to stay in his little old house. (This sounds like fiction, but it is not.) He was warned, begged, pleaded with, and prodded, and at last was allowed to have his own way and perished when the volcano erupted. This illustrates a dilemma. Though people have free will, I think we have a moral obligation to speak the truth with those we love or have influence with. However, like Jen alluded to, that might not be "tolerated." Relativists would silence the voice of Christians even to share their convictions. Do they think THAT infringes upon the rights of others? Apparently so. I think that's what happened to me. Now I'm praying for wisdom to know how to be able to communicate in an acceptable, hearable way that I'm not being hateful, rude, harsh, or condemning just because I do not speak pc language! On the other hand, maybe it's not worth it. Maybe I'll just take the loving and go along with ignoring certain "facts." But somehow that type of loving doesn't reach deeply into my heart where I need comforting... On the other hand of the other hand, most of my healing already took place before I even shared with that person. I'm actually doing fine. I wish I could be honest and share that my heart has been taken out and shredded by tragedy--and, yes, sin--in our family and that I have not only survived but have seen Redemption at work! Oh! The joy of not being politically correct! We can fail, and, because of the Cross can rise again and walk in victory. OK! I just saw something! I think while I was writing the above words, I realized that dear person's wish: They did not want me to have to admit failure! They did not want to hurt me or even see my hurt. Bless their heart! Because of love for me and, the pc vocab kicked in. I am now talking in circles; so I shall get off the forum and unpack from our mini trip today.
Yes, Prairie, we live not far from Mt. St. Helens, and that is a true man. There are books with pictures of him they took the last time they went in to try to get him to come out. As I read thes posts, my thoughts on tolerance turned to what I have been reading lately. We got beautifully illustrated Time Life books about World War II from a library sale for a pittance compared to what they're worth! My ds14 loves looking and reading through them, and I have looked/read some as well. In one place it was talking about groups of people that would band together for a good cause ----at first. Groups that were against what Hitler and his 3rd Reich were about. They wouldn't tolerate what was happening. They were angry and disgusted with all the killing, so they got together to help each other and defend the right. When they captured some of the German soldiers, what did they do? They tortured and killed them for what they had done. And some of the torture was HORRENDOUS! Well, NO torture is good, but it went into detail of some of the things they did. Which put them at the same level of these others that they weren't tolerating. Then others couldn't tolerate what those people did, so they got ahold of them and tortured THEM! Crazy how it all worked out and horribly sad!
Yes Deena, even intolerance has to have boundaries. Lucky for us those boundaries are clearly defined by Biblical principles and the still small voice that God so graciously gives us.
The irony of much of today's "tolerance" is its own intolerance of anything that doesn't line up with its own definitions. In striving to avoid condemnation and violence, the other ditch--tolerance of everything--looks tempting. But it can never be what it claims, because it holds its own insidious intolerance. It is difficult to walk on the narrow road of speaking the truth in love, and I'm deeply in need of finding that road right now, both with our children and with those who lovingly want to excuse them. What an unnerving position! An additional point to what you said, Deena, is that one of the complications of history is that so many atrocities were committed by people who used the label of Christian, but who didn't know Christ. A true Christian will be gentle and kind to people, while speaking the truth in love--much like I see happening on this forum. What I have sometimes seen (and felt a bit last week) is that just speaking about a Biblical principle might be considered a "hate crime"--even about issues on which the Bible is clear. I fear daily that I will alienate one of the people I love the most, that I will over-react, or wreak damage to relationships. Yet I find a deeper love that wants their best, no matter what the cost to myself, even misunderstanding or rejection. I so long to tread prudently, like the Master, who knew when to use the whip on money-changers but did not carry a stone for sinners. (I do get that mixed up sometimes. Sadly, in grief or anger I have hurled stones. I have hurt people. And on the other hand, coward-like, I have also kept my mouth shut when I should have spoken--times when the idol of people-pleasing took precedence over having no other gods before Him.) So, in sorting out the issues here, it looks like I can "talk the talk." Now I pray for wisdom and then for courage to "walk the walk." If only I didn't know myself and my weaknesses so well! I have to keep thinking, "HE is able! HE can do His will through me, in spite of myself." You'all letting me discuss this here is helping. I appreciate you!
I follow a strict "Hate the sin, love the sinner." approach. Sin is still wrong and I don't have to pretend otherwise. Once you do, you've denied your beliefs and God. Stick to your guns girl, you're absolutely in the right. Amy
I agree with what many of the ladies have already expressed. I am not into relativism or tolerating sin. This is God's world so God's rules, plain and simple. I know not all believe in a God or worship God but that doesn't change who created this world and what truth is. Of course, we need to present ourselves in the proper way and in proper context. However, I would never allow someone to tell me that I should tolerate certain things that go against my core beliefs. Who are we if we do? What do we really believe? If we buckle to relativism than we must not really believe what we claim to. Tolerance and intolerance are a matter of selfish perspective anyway. I perfer just to go by the book.
Prairie, we'll keep praying for you! And you keep praying too, as I know you are! God will lead. And by the way, it won't really be you hurting them. It will be you following what the Bible says, and them not understanding. "Blessed are you when man shall revile you... Rejoice and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven..." (Matthew 5:11&12)
Thank you! I am rejoicing today--sipping every bit of joy from this beautiful, sunny day, the family around me, opportunities to learn, and especially from the fact that we have a great big, wonderful God Who can use my feeble words and interpret them for His purposes. Deena, your words recalled to mind the quote: "Life is fragile. Handle with prayer!"
To protect the identity of those whose words inspired this thread, I'm going to go back and do some editing. I hope no one minds. God has blessed our family in surrounding us with people who love us--neighbors, family, friends, Christians who care from a distance--that I wouldn't want to appear ungrateful. Just yesterday a dear neighbor told me that she admired the way we have allowed challenges to shape us more into the image of Christ! Praise the Lord! She did not deny the reality of sin. She just lined it up in its proper perspective beside the infinite power of Redemption. I was strengthened for the journey!
