What about the offerings you send in a situation like this? Certainly you can't specify who is or is not allowed to benefit from it.
To me welcoming someone on a forum discussion and inviting them to stay with my family are two VERY diffrent things. In Both situations I don't hesitate to say, "Hey I really believe what you are doing is wrong and here's why...." I expect to hear that from others when I do stuff people feel is wrong as well. I respect honesty when it is presented in a respectful way. In a forum situation (like here) my child is not at risk by me being kind and helpful to someone doing things I disagree with. They might even eventually become intrested in my point of view, I may learn something about them. I do not have a problem with befriending 'sinners' the bible ranks lying right up there with homosexuality and find me anyone who has never lied! Jesus was regularly put down for hanging out with sinners too. I had two friends who were lesbians, they were raising a little girl and their little girl came to play with my daughter often. I started having problems with this when Sami turned 3 because she had questions that mommy could not explain the answer to properly on a three year old level. They don't play together anymore. I won't shelter my kid all her life from knowing about these things but I also won't expose her unnecessarily to things that are hard for some adults to understand while she is still so young. Also, when teaching values You sometimes have to say, "As for me and my house..." And that has to include all those who spend time in the household. Exposing a youg child to adults who live a diffrent lifestyle than we do, before she is ready to understand the details is not a good idea and I won't do it. If I offered to help a family, like in the example of Katerina... I'd have clarified quite a few things BEFORE it came to picking them up at an airport! If by some weird quirk they ended up at my house anyway I would explain to them (Out of the hearing of little minds with big ears) why they cannot stay with me and i would help them find an alternate place to stay.
Okay, I'm pretty sure this has been brought up a couple times already so I'd like to clear something up before someone misuses this event in the Bible again. Let the record show that Jesus did not just "hang out" with publicans and sinners. The passage in scripture concerning this particular incident can be found in Matthew 9:9-13. Matthew 9:9-13 "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, He saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He sayeth unto him, Follow Me. And he arose, and followed Him. And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto His disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call righteousness, but sinners to repentance." Also take note of Matthew 10:3 where we find a list of the names of the disciples: “Philip, and Bartholomew, Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus;” As you can see, Jesus was not just “hanging out.” He was at Matthew’s house and Matthew’s friends came to hear Jesus speak. Jesus was evangelizing. It would be similar to a person getting saved and inviting their pastor/Christian friend over for dinner to speak to their lost friends. After reading this, I’d appreciate it if people stop saying Jesus “socialized” with sinners and that somehow gives us the right to “socialize” with sinners. Jesus tried to lead sinners to repentance, so we should try and lead sinners to repentance and that is all. I Corinthians 15:33 “Do not be deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.”
Yes you are correct in what you are saying about Jesus. It was not let me sit with you while you have your beer and count your money collected in wrong doings. My kids are 8, 8 and 13. They do know about gay people. They understand that they live together and sleep together. Even raise children together. Any questions that came up I discussed with them. We also talked about what the Bible says about it. But I don't plan to rub it in their faces. As with many other subjects too. As I have explained about smoking, drinking, stealing, hitting your brother/sister, cheating, etc.
Just to clarify my feelings on this subject of Jesus socializing with people who were deemed at that time to be sinners of the day. Whether Jesus was at Peter's home or Matthews or in the temple everyone but Jesus was a sinner so if you are interested in semantics then he hung out with sinners. I believe that is why he came. Since Jesus was teaching/talking and people were asking questions, the term socialize is not completely unacceptable. I used the term <eating> as that is what the passage of the Bible states. Unfortunately it is hard to <not> talk whilest dining so I don't think it is completely out of context to for another lady to use the term socialize. I don't believe that anyone here when using the term to socialize with sinners meant Jesus was drunk off his behind at the local pub and that gives us a license to do the same. On the contrary, the second part of my previous post relays my feelings on the matter of hanging out with people who flagrantly promote their lifestyles. Laura earthmomma
Aids I wanted to add too the my family has sent money into an Aids charity too. I don't feel anyone should die from any disease. We wouldn't say oh Dad is dying. He smoked a pack a day for 30 years and that is ok. We would say oh my what can we do for dear old dad now. That raise money for cancer research. My mother died from ALS and I have sent money into them too. I have raised money for cancer and the local Children's Hospital. Not to praise myself at all but to show that we all should help fund any project to help stop diseases of any kind.
Sorry I was a bit casual with the term "Hanging out". My point was that I dont' segregate myself completely from people who sin. I said that I make friends with them and that I also do not hesitate to tell them that I think they are sinning and WHY I think they are sinning. It's hard to show someone the love of Jesus if you just tell them they are going to hell and don't spend actual time with them getting to know them and who they are. It's diffrent for me as an adult with a firm foundation in my beliefs and lots of friends who are christians who I fellowship with to go "Hang out" with people who are not christians and live a homosexual lifestyle than it is for a child. Children still have to gain that foundation in themselves before befriending other people and tell them about God. And by Hanging out I definately do NOT mean Jesus Spent time being involved in the sins that the sinners were engulfed in. When I say I "Hung Out" with my lesbian friends. I don't mean I went to gay oriented parties. I mean I spent time at their house getting to know them and spent hours talking about beliefs on diffrent subjects, quite often subjects that gave me an oppurtunity to present Jesus to them without being preachy. My child is in no way prepared for that sort of interaction and that is why she is not allowed to play with their child.
Syele brought up an excellent point. How can you evangelize to these people if you treat them like lepers? Wasn't it a prostitute at the well that Jesus spoke to? Maybe no one ever presented the gospel to these people, and one kind person could make all the difference. Being kind DOES NOT mean accepting their lifestyle.
I like what Syele just mentioned. That's what went through my mind when I read this. It's up to us to set good examples for others, and what kind of example do we set if we just shut doors in their faces? Sin is sin, no matter how great or small. We are no better than someone who is a professed lesbian or gay man. I believe homosexuality is a sin, it says it clear as day in the Bible. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Adam Jr. But many other things are sins as well that each of us do every day. There are two kinds of Christians, the first excepts that they sin and excepts that all sins are sins regardless of how great they seem. The second is one that thinks that their sins aren't as bad as others. I personally, do not want to be held accountable and judged for thinking I am higher and mightier than someone who decides to be a homosexual. That is a sin in itself. And just another thought, we really need to stop taking everything everyone says so literally. I understood what was said when someone said "hanging out" and I would hope that any mature adult would also understand.
Maybe the poster wasn't intending for "hanging out" to justify a lifestyle (sin) but that notion is often misquoted for such a purpose. I doubt if many of us go into establishments with the sole purpose of proclaiming the gospel.
I don't really consider the home of a lesbian or my home if a lesbian comes to vist me to be an establishment. This thread is not talking about going to bars and the like. It's talking about weather a lesbian HS mom would be welcomed in this forum or in our homes. I stand by my assertation that welcoming someone and being kind to them here reguardless of the sins in their lives would not make this place like a bar or gay hangout. On the Contrary! IF you are kind and welcoming to people they open up to you and you have an oppurtunity to show them lovingkindness that is a fruit of the Spirit. IF you tell them they are not welcome and you do not associate with their ilk then they will be offended and leave with a not so nice view of HS Christians! (I also seriously doubt they will repent as a result!) I was letting you know that I don't just suggest these things for online forums but I do my best to live my life this way. I stand by my comment that Jesus was kind and forgiving to sinners and I should try to follow His lead. Being kind and forgiving and talking to people is not the same as condoning their actions. -- I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. And I will be sticking to those threads here that are not of a Christian Nature. For some reason, this forum has many people who get offended easily and some others who do not read all of whats posted before replying. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone particular, I just don't feel comfortable having discussions of this nature because I try to honestly say what I mean and I can't walk on eggshells for fear one phrase here or there might cause unreasonable offense.
Anybody I ever knew, when talking about why they don't go to church, list being looked at for their clothes, looked down on for how they give, and just feeling unwelcomed. These were straight people getting the treatment. It's all in how you present yourself. In the case of the hurricane victims, if you turn a hurting, obliterated family away because of its makeup and try to hand them a tract as you do it, they will tell you what you can do with that tract. When my sister's house burned down I asked our church if they could rent the empty parsonage. They agreed and my sister's family could leave the tiny motel room the 4 of them were in. To me, that was the best show of Christian love. They could have turned them away because they smoked or because of mistakes my sister made in her marriage. They knew this family needed to heal , so they helped. That is what it's all about, I think.
Just to show you I'm not prejudiced toward gays, I would also not allow an unmarried couple to stay here, either. I hear what you're saying, but IN MY HOME there are certain behaviors we cannot accept. And we DID deal with that directly with my step-son and his then-girlfriend.
Yes, my grandmother is living with a man and if they ever come and visit, they will not be allowed to sleep in the same room. Because of this, they have never visited and stayed the night. I also have a homosexual uncle and he also is not welcome to spend the night, and if he has his "friend" along he knows it's best if we never meet him. But in every dealing we have with my grandmother and uncle, they know we love them. We still give them hugs and talk to them at family gatherings. They know we disapprove of their lifestyles so neither of us press the issue. The infamous Sergeant York from WWI said in his book that when the other soldiers asked him to go out to the pub or chase women, he'd ask them if they knew how he felt about those things. If they said no, he'd tell them why he wouldn't participate using scripture. If they said yes, he'd say that he'd already told them once and he wasn't going to tell them again and that he didn't appreciate being asked after he'd already explained his position on the matter. That's the way I feel about it. My job is only to warn people that what they are doing is a sin and it's up to them and God whether or not the heed my warnings. After I've done my duty, I won't likely bring it up again unless they do themselves. I will not allow my fear of offending someone overrule my duty to inform them of their impending everlasting doom. I'd rather they died offended than died ignorant. I would also like to ask a somewhat odd question. In the Bible, did Jesus ever convert a homosexual? Did He ever even talk to one? I honestly don't know the answer to this question so it is an honest one. I know Jesus talked with the adulterous woman and I know he dealt with the demon possessed, but I can't recall a singe homosexual even mentioned in the gospels. If that is true, why do you think that is? All I can come up with is in the first chapter of Romans where is speaks about the "road" to homosexuality: Romans 1:20-32 "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of an uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding; covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." The parts I put in bold speak about how God has basically left homosexuals to themselves because of the extreme level of their depravity. Perhaps that is why homosexuals aren't mentioned in the gospels? The parts I put in italic really speak to me about the condition of New Orleans before, during, and after the hurricane. Has anyone considered Katrina to be the judgment of God on that city and on our nation as a whole? Just look at what took place in that city after the disaster and compare it to the scripture above. Is it any wonder Katrina was a category 5 and a direct hit? I know there were good people that suffered through that disaster, and that should be a warning to us all. When God judges America as a nation, we will be judged as a nation as a whole. Just like Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah, God spared him, but his life was ruined. Has anyone considered that ever since our nation sided with the Palestinians against Israel concerning the Gaza Strip that we’ve had nothing but problem after problem after problem and we have another hurricane on the way? God promises in the Bible that He will defend His chosen people and their rights to the promise land. Perhaps God is going to take us down before we can move against Israel? Perhaps our forsaking of His people was the last straw and now He will no longer withhold His hand of judgment on our land? Perhaps hurricane season is only the beginning. America has lots of blood on it's hands. We need to mend our ways... II Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Josh, you have to be realistic as well. Even though you have great points, you have to remember that back in Jesus' day, homosexuality was more suppressed and wasn't as prevelant as it is today. Even though it is not recorded that Jesus never converted anyone it doesn't mean that we should give up on people. I HAVE known people to convert because they realized it was a sin, and that is a fact. A sin is a sin, no matter how big or small it may SEEM. You are just as much a sinner as a homosexual. Where in the Bible does it say that homosexuals are bigger sinners than others? We are all equal sinners. To say it differently is judgemental. Now I am not saying I would let someone and their "lover" kiss in front of my child, etc. I believe in protecting my child until he is at an age of being able to understand things better. Just like that you were saying about your uncle. There is a time and place, but I would never judge someone and give up on them because they choose to lead a different kind of lifestyle. How is that Christian? They will be judged enough when it is time. I don't "except and agree" with what they choose, but we do need to be humble and respectful to ALL human beings regardless of their choices. And as a Christian I do believe it is a choice. I do not believe someone is born gay, despite what others say. We as Christians need to remember modesty. Ponder this though. This really isn't a "side", but maybe it will shed light on what you may be getting across. A sin is a sin, but have you ever heard of someone who is saved being a homosexual? I haven't, so maybe that is what you are getting at. A sin is a sin, no matter what, but it may not be realistic for someone to claim to be a saved Christian and be homosexual. Nonetheless, sins are equal. Does that make sense? That actually makes things a little more confussing, but I thought I'd ponder it.
You know, Jackie, I was never told it was bad to live together. If anything I was told it was sensible, because if it didn't work out it was that much easier to leave. When Dean and I lived together those few months before we got married I was very uncomfortable with how that must have looked. LOL. If I hadn't pushed we'd still be living together.
My husband and I were just talking about this actually. Katrina however, was not reported as a category five after they did their research. At least that is what our newscasters have been saying. They have recently been reporting that it was a category 3, but the things, what ever you call them..supports that keep the city safe from hurricanes (gosh it's bothering me that I can't think of the name) were suppose to keep out a category 5 which is why there was so much controversy over what really happend and why some people decided to stay...they thought they'd be safe. Anyways, I wouldn't doubt if it was a sign of God. When you add a few things up it does make sense. New Orleans was the home of Mardi Gras, one big sin-fest in itself. It was also one of America's highest rated crime areas. I wouldn't doubt if God just wanted to get rid of a bunch of things that were going on there. Last I heard that there was a city that was going to take on the Mardi Gras tradition. If I were those people I'd be moving for fear that something else was going to happen. I believe it may have been a wake up call and maybe some of those people have come to know the Lord since that day.
Don't forget that vodoo is also big in New Orleans. Becky, that's just the problem. No one is afraid to call sin "sin" anymore for fear of offending. I think you were "uncomfortable" because deep down you knew it was "wrong", regardless of what society might say about it. Perhaps if a good friend had told you straight out it might have saved you some grief. (And I do mean a "good friend", not someone who knew nothing about you just spouting off.) Josh, I tend to side with Jen to a certain degree. I understand what you're trying to say about no record of Jesus talking with a homosexual, and you may very well be right. But at that time, homosexuality was strongly frowned on, at least in Jewish society, so I would guess that practicing homosexuals would be few and far between. Those that would exist would be very hard-core, I would think. Today, because of its "acceptability", any young person that feels some confusion over puberty is told by couselors, "You must be gay!!! Come out of the closet and embrace it!!!" And these kids that know no difference figures it's worth a try. There are many people rescued out of homosexuality, but I would say they are a small percentage. Also, a friend who is involved in Street Ministry claims that a homosexual is one of the hardest people to witness to.
Exactly. My point is that a homosexual has reached the pinnacle of depravity next to beastiality. I'm not saying to give up on them, I'm saying we shouldn't be so "nicey nice" about the issue. We should rebuke in love. It's because we have stopped rebuking them that homosexuality has become so accepted as Jackie said in her post. That's why I would rebuke a homosexual couple and not allow them to stay in my house. Allowing homosexuals to live with you, for however long, is a strong form of acceptance and gives the wrong message. Actions speak louder than words. They need to know that their lifestyle is unacceptable to the Lord and as a result, the Lord's people. II Corinthians 6:14 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are temples of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
