Like others have said, allowing them to stay in your home together is different than embracing them with love and friendship. But when you say "the pinnacle of depravity" it makes it sound like you are putting that sin above others, when it's not. A sin is a sin. Good point Jackie about the counselors not a days. Everyone is so worried about offending people these days instead of being truthful. No wonder our world is going down the tubes. Nonetheless, maybe then we'll be 'taken home' quicker then. Do you think it's possible, or have ever known, for anyone to be saved and a homosexual? I have never met anyone who is, but do you suppose it's possible? You can be saved and still smoke, even though you know that smoking is a sin. What about that side? I'm on the fence, but would be leaning towards the "no" side due to I've never met anyone that is. Just curious about your thoughts.
I'm going to go out on the limb and say yes. God can call save someone OUT OF that lifestyle. So if a person is gay, accepts Christ, you cannot expect them to do a cmplete turn-around over night. God accepts us AS WE ARE...we do NOT have to change first to be accepted! A (former) gay Christian can know it's wrong, and be struggling in that area. But there can still be honest repentence along with the struggling. The question is, are they willing to be held accountable in that area? Are there mature Christians that are willing to come along side them to encourage them, to hold them accountable without condemnation, to help them through times of temptation? Can a person be a Christian and still be living with someone of the opposite sex, knowing full well what the Bible has to say about it?
Wow. In depth...I won't even comment on the sexual sin part..... Hey, Josh. I used to follow politics very closely and seem to have been a bit slack recently with a family and such. I had NO IDEA that the US had officially sided with the Palestinians on that. I knew that our stance with Isreal was quite possibly the ONLY thing that held the Lord's hand back. The natural disasters we are told are only the beginning of the birth pangs. I really don't want to be around for what is beginning. I guess it's time to pray that our flight be not in winter and praise God that I'm not pregnant or nursing :shock:. I live in the midwest and have thought about tornadoes and earth quakes, but the midwest is loaded with ammunition plants and power plants and other explosive things....I'm going to be praying that God would spare us from that kind of devastation. The time is NOW to be making our robes white! It's also time to break out the scriptures on topics like this instead of saying "I feel" or "It seems"...God has a lot to say about homosexuality AND when we don't warn people AND what we are to do about any close relationship we have forged with people in deep sin (and yes, there is a difference--they are called abominations). No sin can be in the Lord's presence, but different things evoke different emotions in the Lord. He tells us that in the last days many will be deceived!!!! I don't want to be one of them....however, I have felt the pull to the world stronger recently than EVER in my life...and I've noticed it in other longtime Christians.....we are being tested now and forced to take up sides. Examine yourself to see that you are in the faith. That will ALWAYS clear up any doctrinal disputes over salvation and repentence, kwim?
I think it was on Focus on the Family that I heard a story about a former homosexual and former lesbian who gave up that lifestyle and married each other. I don't think people are born with this, I believe something causes this at some point. It would make sense that the right person/event/guidance/intercession could change their way of life.
God can save anyone from any sin. What I meant when I said "forsaken" was that God leaves them to themselves until they decide to turn back to Him. I know a homeschooled professing Christian who fell into homosexuality but came back out of it again a few years later. If it wasn't for his parents standing up for what they believed in, rather than just accepting his bad choice, he may never have found his way out of that sin. It would have sent the wrong message if his parents had welcomed him home with open arms while still denouncing his sexuality. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Also, what I meant when I said "the pinnacle of depravity" was that yes, all sins are sins and because of that they are equal, but homosexuals are consumed by multiple sins. They are depraved of all morals to the point of sexual perversion. You are right, I am a sinner and therefore no better than anyone. But some of us have way more problems than others. Because I was raised in a Christian home it was easy for me to accept the Christian life. Some people are so deep in their sins that even the concept of Christianity is too much for them to grasp. Does that make any sense? And Brooke, thanks for what you said. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Actually, sin is sin, not because of the sin, but because of the result...if we stumble in one point of the law, we are guilty of all. James 2:10 At the same time, God's word clearly shows that some things He hates, some things He detests, and some things are abominable to Him. KJV Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. And for those who believe the King James to be archaic, this is from The Message (a paraphrase, not a literal translation): Pro 6:16 Here are six things GOD hates, and one more that he loathes with a passion: Pro 6:17 eyes that are arrogant, a tongue that lies, hands that murder the innocent, Pro 6:18 a heart that hatches evil plots, feet that race down a wicked track, Pro 6:19 a mouth that lies under oath, a troublemaker in the family. We must all be extremely careful for God warns: Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. Pro 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. I know that often I have to check myself for this sin. I personally believe it is the most wicked sin. Pride was the sin that made the Pharisees reject the authority of Christ. Pride is the reason Satan was cast out of heaven. Pride causes us to move into action and turn the desires of our wicked hearts into a reality. Even Eve sinned first due in part to pride. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. It is not my place to judge sinners, for they are condemned already. Jn. 3:18 But I must be very careful of what I allow, what I condone, or what I fail to eschew. I also have to realize that true love is not a warm fuzzy feeling, it is an action. I could never knowingly tell a homosexual how to be a better homeschooling parent without giving him or her the gospel of Christ first.I also must be very careful to show love in the true Christian sense. The good news starts with the bad news...we are sinners. Every single one of us. To address another question:*if* I knew a confessing Christian who *remained* in the lifestyle of homosexuality, adultery, fornication (living together) or drunkeness I would have to stay away from that person because God commands it. 1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. The most important judging I need to do is that of my own self. If I harbor pride or deceit in my own heart, I can not be of any use in helping a brother or sister who has fallen, nor can I rightly proclaim the love of Christ. I appreciate this thread for one thing...it has caused me to turn to God to anser the questions, and to determine which of the things He hates that I have been guilty of. If we all worry more about our own shortcomings we will be better stewards of the gospel. Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Carrie
Oh boy. Here I am! Well, if she didn't at that point I'm afraid I'm about to. Jen Convinced me that Maybe I was too hasty opting out of the thread here (not sure she relized she convinced me though LOL) So, I read to see the rest of the thread and I agree that I (and others) shouldn't be so worried about offending people. Especially when speaking up could really help someone! So when I read it all I decided that this is important to say, even if you all were to decide to ask me to leave the forum as a result of it. So I'm about to tell it just how it is.(At least from my perspective.) If you get offended easily, You may get offended. Fair warning. Carrie, I think I needed to list some of those verses you looked up. But I'll just put one for now: So the Bible clearly says homosexuals are counted among the unrighteous. (There is more where that came from and you guys know that so I'll keep it short there) But, look what else is considered unrighteous. Think if you have ever done even one those things? Lying for example is one most people have done at least 100 times by the time they were 18 years old. The punishment for sin is death. It's pretty clear throughout the Bible from Genesis to revelation. God hates all sin. One sinner is no more to be sent away from God by the church (Meaning Christian people as a whole, not just an individual local church) than any other. There is only one way to have your punishment revoked... Jesus. We are to Share Christs love for everyone equally. We are to forgive everyone. I said it in a previous post and I'll say it again, That is not necessarily the same as exposing children to it! In fact welcoming a homosexual HS parent on this board and being nice to them while not hiding your dislike of their choices(in a kind manner) is not putting yourself or your children at risk and could help someone. It's way less risk for you than even doing so in church! Also talking to a person and being nice to them is not the same as becoming their best friend and spending lots of time with them. If it was, then all those verses would contradict all the verses that say we should witness to everyone to the far corners of the earth and those that say to love your neighbor as yourself. Yes it is definately possible! Not only that, But I think you are wrong about not having met anyone who is. The smoking analogy is pretty on target. Just about every Christian still sins and sin is sin is sin is sin. It seperates you from God. Period. There is a BIG reason that most of you haven't "met" a Christian Homosexual. It's because people don't open up and share stuff like that if they think you really and trully won't understand. I know some women in my church who "sneak" around to smoke. Yup. grown women hiding the fact that they smoke because they haven't yet kicked the habit (though, they know it's wrong, are praying for release from the addiction and are truly trying to quit) and feel like they will be more condemned than lifted up in their time of struggle. Christian Homosexuals have it way worse than Christian smokers, if for no other reason than the sheer amout of confusion about the whole issue. Some of them have their only christian fellowship where they can get stronger in the Lord at church and fear that if they ask for help they will be kicked out of the Church instead! There's a fine way to bring more people close to God! I know of a man who was gay before he became a Christian, after being saved he still felt attracted to men and not women. It was 19 years before God preformed a miracle in his life and he stoped being attracted to men! All that time he remained abstinate from sex and prayed for God to take away the desires. Did he tell his fellow Church members? NO. Did he believe Homosexuality was ok? No. Did he still think he qualified as a homosexual? Yes. He was still attracted to men. Homosexual feelings work the same way feelings of Jealousy, greed, lying or vanity or any other sin listed in the Bible. No one (or VERY few people) wakes up one morning and says, "Hmm, I think I will get really jealous of (or lie to *or Substitute what ever sin here*) someone else today!" and then goes out to hunt up something to be jealous about. Also, God did NOT make a jealousy gene and put it in certian people only to laugh when they disobeyed an order to not feel that way. He is not a mean and cruel God! Instead they are just minding their own business and Satan, who unfortunately knows the person has a weakness in that area decides to whisper temptations and little comments in their ear to rile them up! Satan likes to get people to fall into sin... That is why he is our enemy! Homosexuality is no diffrent. Most people didn't choose that, they just suddenly realized they have feelings of that sort (just like the jealous person) It sneaks up on a person. Many gay people get very upset if you say they chose to be Gay. I often hear them say, Why would anyone choose this? No one purposely chooses a path where they will be made fun and rejected by a huge prtion of society...(Check this link out http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/6694334/) It is Satan's lies that get them to believe that it is how they are made. God made us all in His image and gave us free will to choose what to do when we are tempted. (What would be the value in obeying if we had no choice anyhow?) Whatever areas of weakness we struggle with, be it lying, murdering, kidnapping, jealousy, Gluttony, greed, idolatry, homosexuality or whatever sin we catch ourselves in, God wants us to turn from it ask for forgiveness and run into His arms. He adopts us into his family as His children and wants us to follow Him. God will help us in the areas we are weak in, We just have to ask Him for forgiveness for past failures and for protection from future ones. Ok, so here's were I tell you how I got to the point of being so sure of all this. I lived it myself. Only a few of my friends and all of the lesbians I talk with about God know this about me. Not my Family and not my church. I explained part of the reason why above. I was not a lesbian Before I became a Christian it was AFTER. I grew up in chruch, being taught strong Christian values by my mother. When I started feeling attracted to girls, I was only a girl myself and didn't even know that there was a word for such a thing. I had never heard of a lesbian or even a gay person. I sensed in my spirit that the attraction was wrong and went to my mom about it but I didn't have the vocabulary to explain it at the time and my mom didn't understand what I was saying to her. It was never dealt with at the time. I tried to ignore it until College and there I did not have the Christian support in my life I had had previously and started living that lifestyle. I have left some details out of this paragraph but how much I shared is true. The extent of my experiences here are not the important part. Sorry Josh, that is not true of Christian gays. *Maybe* it could be true of non-Christian gays but I find it tough to believe. I know this because *God Sought me out* even when I began to reject Him more fiercely! It seemed the farther I tried to run from Him the more He went to get me! I even had one day I remember clearly where I was feeling somewhat convicted by God and that afternon a woman I didn't know showed up at my door. I opened it up and she said, "I have a messege from God for you." I truly didn't want to hear it! But she did, in fact, have a messege from God, directly for me. She said I was God's Child, that he still counted me as one of His Children, that He was sad that I was being rebellious and He wanted me to go Home to Him! I sent that woman away, I didn't want to hear it. Next, God gave her a job where I worked! LOL looking back I laugh, I was mad then. She often cornered me in the break room with messeges from God. They were allways RIGHT ON TARGET and I was always avoiding her like the plague! God didn't just speak to me through Maria. During that time, He sent me dreams! Dreams where God showed me that I was saved but had no power to help anyone in anyway especially not to lead anyone to Him. <Continued in next post... It appears my soapbox is very longwinded tonight!>
It was a few years before I repented and stopped living that lifestyle and it was still a few more years after that God had mercy on me and removed all of that sort of attraction. Now I look back and it seems odd to think about it, foreign to me. Foreign because that lifestyle is not the way you live when you follow in God's footsteps. I never got to thank Maria for what she did, it was brave to come to my house and talk to me when I was a stranger and it was braver still that she kept telling me what God told her to tell me even when I was rude to her and refused to believe her or even show signs I was listening! If she had decided to stay away from me because I was a sinner, I hope God would have found another way to get through to me, but I think it would have been harder. So the origional Question here was: I hope so too. And as for me there is no way I would give her any reason to reject God's call for her to go to Him based on my behaviour as a Christian!
I think the bottom line is that GOD CHANGES PEOPLE regardless of their sin or their circumstance. There is NO SIN he cannot overcome. As far as a homosexual Christian, I have no doubt that Satan will test Christians in that way. You very eloquently testified to that, Syele! I also had a roommate that struggled with that AFTER she became a Christian. No, I no longer keep in touch with her; she has since passed away. But I also feel the important thing is accountability. No matter what your sin, you need a more mature Christian asking you the hard questions. Being tempted is NOT sin; giving in to temptation IS. When a person has certain desires, do they feed those desires or pray against them? God calls for abstinance outside of marriage, period. That is true for a Christian struggling with homosexuality as it is for a straight Christian. I think FEELINGS of a homosexual nature come from outside of us, and are not a choice. But what we DO about those feelings IS our choice. In such, we DO CHOSE to "become" homosexual by acting on those feelings. And yes, we DO chose to follow a lifestyle of rejection and hardship. I see it in my step-sons in other areas. They have CHOSEN to reject the stable lifestyle their father and I live for the unstable, dysfunctional lifestyle of their mother. One was actually living out of his car with a pregnant teenage runaway for a while!!! They are welcome home any time, BUT it would mean rejecting certain behaviors that they are not willing to give up. I had a homeless uncle who was offered his own apartment on his brother's property, and a job to go with it. Rent free, no strings attatched. He turned it down, because there was no gambling in the area. He wasn't willing to give up the one behavior that caused his homeless condition. He actually CHOSE homelessness. At the same time, I believe that "Christian" organizations that wholeheartedly "embrace" homosexuals out of "love" are nothing but the servants of the devil, used to keep people in a lifestyle of bondage. I believe they have good intentions, but are totally ignorant of God's word or impending judgement.
Love the sinner NOT the sin I wasn't able to come to the forum for a week because of connection problems and when I did come back, I saw this thread. OUCH! I'm only going to reply to it the once and then unsubscribe to it... to continually post in it would only set me up to say something that might not sound right or that may sound judgemental - and I don't want to do that. I hope I don't go overboard this time. Becky, you ask a question that really causes one to think. And so here is my answer: No matter who comes here - whether they are gay, lesbian, a member of what we consider to be a cult, of some other 'faith' system, an ex-convict, a murderer - whatever the case may be - they're welcome here. Does it mean that I agree with their lifestyle - probably not, but just because I don't agree with their lifestyle, doens't make them an outcast or me any better than they are. I am a sinner the same as everyone else who has ever lived (or ever will). The only difference that I can see is that I am a sinner saved by Grace. Step back and see things through God's eyes... He loves ALL of us - no matter who we are, what we do, what we have done, etc. He wants us to love others the very same way - unconditionally. He doesn't love me on the condition that I don't get upset with my boys, or that hubby and I don't have a disagreement about something (good thing). We're human! We sin - we ask for forgiveness - simple. Bottom line is that no matter who comes here, in my eyes, they're welcome. I may not agree with their lifestyle, but that's ok... I'm human and am subject to making mistakes. God is in the business of changing people - me included... I'm certainly not the same person I was when I was first saved - for which I am greatful. We have had people come here who have been open about their choice of 'faith' systems and I will admit that I was too judgemental about what they believed... I thought 'shame on them for not believing what I believe', but when you dig down and really look at the inner side of a person, you see that they have a heart the same that we do, they love their children the same that we do and they want what they feel is best for their children - the same that we all do. We can learn from them if we could just get beyond the superficial stuff and give them a chance. This forum wasn't developed for us to come in and take charge and pick and choose who was welcome. It is a public forum open for homeschoolers to come and share... My brother replied to an email I had sent to him one day last winter and really hit me with a message (I know what not to send to him now). He asked me, what would you do if one of your boys came to you and said he was homesexual? Would you stop loving them or talking to them because of the choice that they made? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It was then that I really stepped back and started to look at the whole issue from a different angle. This does not mean that I agree with the lifestyle, HOWEVER it gave me another angle to look at it from (and more to pray about). I pray that my boys will not come to me someday and say this to me, but if it happens, I'll deal with it the best way I know how. I have an uncle who left his wife and two daughters for a homosexual relationship - was I thrilled? Not really. Did I stop loving him? Absolutely not. My bottom line is this... I have been given the opportunity to witness to others. If I'm sitting at my computer looking down on someone because of their lifestyle all I am doing is being a poor witness to them and not doing a thing to give the glory where it belongs - to Jesus. We'll get further ahead by welcoming them with open arms and praying for them than by shunning them making them feel unwanted. Sorry this is so long. I didn't intend to rattle this long. I do not mean offense to anyone. I am no better than anyone else - in my opinion, everyone is welcome here.
I agree. We had a church in the neighborhood whose head pastor started using crystals to heal people...hummmm...I would tend to think that the church would not be biblically correct in using such things, just like it would be contradicting for a church to say they embrace homosexuality. As a church, they have to teach what is biblically correct, but as a human, we need to show love and compassion even if we don't accept and agree. I would never attend a church that would preach for something that is so blatently against God's word.
If a homosexual was hungry, I would give him food to eat. If he was thirsty, I'd give them water to drink. Heck, I might even give them all the money in my wallet! But I would not let them stay in my house and I don't see anything mean or cold about that. True, we need to show compassion to everyone, but there is a limit to what we should do. If an escaped convict came to my door and he was starving, I'd feed him and turn him in. I wouldn't let him stay in my house. Homosexuals are violators of God's law and to take them into your home would be the same as taking in a convict. You'd be sheltering them from coming to terms with authority. Perhaps God has them homeless so He can get their attention and force them to depend on Him. I don't know. All I know is that if I harbor a criminal, I will be guilty of aiding and abetting and will go to jail. Something else to think about: What city was the first to aid New Orleans with housing? Houston? I hate to even say this, but this latest hurricane path seems to be a little more than a coincidence doesn't it? When God judges sin He means business, and if we as Christians want to even have a chance of escaping His wrath, we need to be vary careful what we accept and how we help the guilty.
Josh, that is something I will disagree with you about. I don't know whether or not the mess in New Orleans is God's judgement. It may very well be. But I do NOT believe that God is punishing Houston for showing compassion to those displaced. People were hurting. Compassion demanded that something be done with them immediately. No one was in a position to judge who was "worthy" of rescuing, and who wasn't. Christ tells us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. He doesn't have us sit in judgement as to whether they are in their position due to their own sin.
A agree with you Jackie. I don't think God would punish them for showing compassion either. Josh, I see what you are saying and agree with you on many points. My point is just that many people think that homosexuality is a 'bigger' sin than others, when in turn, all sin is equally the same. That has been my whole point.
I'm sorry... I didn't intend to tell a white lie BUT someone really crossed the line here. I didn't plan on ever replying again to this thread (that's not to say I don't still read them) because I didn't want to say something to get me in trouble BUT... I want to believe in my heart of hearts that we would welcome ANYONE to the forum regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc - I know we would be - there isn't a single person here who appears to be 'holier than thou' and have always shown hospitality in the past. Having said that, (I don't mean to be rude here or appear to be 'holier than thou'), but I find the 'joke' that RB asked rude, condescending and quite frankly not called for or appreciated. You might as well have sworn every word you said. Some ladies who come to this forum have children sitting with them when they are online... that is down right disrespectful to the other person sitting at their computer.
