Christians and Jews have the same heritage so many Christians choose to observe the OT feasts with their fulfillment in mind. I think the problem only arises when people say you HAVE TO keep the feasts as a Christian. I realize many Messianic folks believe that we are grafted into Israel, but I find that the Bible says that Jesus is the vine. I'm grafted into Him.
I can see where you are coming from. Like you, I like learning about other cultures and other religions. I would not however, myself, feel comfortable in another church that does not worship Christ. I would personally feel like I was partaking in worshipping something other than Him even if I wasn't 'participating'. But that's just me. Something would not sit right with me about it...can't really explain why. I think it's just a personal conviction God has laid on me. When I sing at church, it's worship. When I'm listening to our pastor, it's worship. When I am praying, it's worship. So, if I were to go to another religion's temple/church who doesn't proclaim Christ, I would feel like I was worshipping. Someone else may not feel that way, but I would.
Interesting. Yeah, I don't feel the same way. Singing isn't worship to me unless the heart is in it. Listening to the pastor isn't worship unless the heart is communing with God about it. Praying is worship, but prayer has the heart involved. Otherwise is it meaningless.
Please don't take offense to this post... what I have written below comes out of frustration with that phrase... not you personally. It's a phrase that many in our culture use... including many Christian leaders who are supposed to know something about the Bible, history and theology. Unless you are a pastor, it doesn't bother me that you have said it... it just infuriates me that so many "Christian Leaders" do. I really have to take issue with this. Christmas is a lie... many lies actually. Ignoring the Santa lie... Christ was not born on December 25th or anywhere near that time. Christ asked people to celebrate Passover (which most Christians do not observe) NOT Easter (which most Christians do observe). Doesn't any one else find this ironic? I understand why you are saying what you are saying. There is lots of propaganda out there about "taking Christ out of Christmas"... but it's all BS! There is Christian Christmas which has become a Christmas tradition, but I think it's a mistake to ignore the actual history and facts. Whether this is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion. But don't deceive yourself about what is true and what is not. This is one of the big reasons I'm not a Christian. All of the lies that are spread by people who have no sense of history and have either not read the bible, or at least not much of it, and therefore just spew things from their mouths that they've heard other people say, or they have read the bible, but just ignore what they've read? I don't know. Now... if you want to take the 'real meaning' out of Christmas and make it a day where you celebrate Christ, more power to you. I think that can be a very positive thing... just don't spread mistruths... it's not helping the Christian cause! Also, I don't think there are any pagan roots in the Santa tradition... didn't that come from an actual Christian monk? The tree is pagan, celebrating on that day is pagan... Anything that has to do with celebrating Christ on the 25th of December IS taking the 'real meaning' out of that day.
I guess I don't understand what you are all trying to say, but I do want to point out that the tree was not pagan when it was originally introduced. It was actually originally used as an example of the Holy Trinity. I am curious to know what you mean by this: just don't spread mistruths... it's not helping the Christian cause!, as I am not aware of any mistruths. Most people are fully aware that Christ wasn't actually born on Dec. 25th...(see explanation below). I guess I don't agree with you when you say Anything that has to do with celebrating Christ on the 25th of December IS taking the 'real meaning' out of that day. Because, for Christians, Christ should be celebrated every day, not just on Christmas. Most of us understand that Christ was not actually born on December 25th, but because we can't pinpoint the actual day (only guess), it is the day that our nation/world/religion has set aside to observe the birth of Christ. Simple as that. THAT to me, is the 'real' meaning...that is why it's called CHRISTmas.
I can say though that if I were watching something of the like on tv, I would not feel the same conviction. Kind of like watching a football game on tv. On tv it's not very exciting, but when you see it in person you feel like you are more a part of it. I guess I would know in my heart I was not actually 'worshipping' since I would not have the same beliefs of those of another religion, but I would still feel a sense of uncertainty and feel uncomfortable...maybe that's a better way to put it.
Actually, the Mormons celebrate Christ's birth on a day that is MUCH closer to when it would have been: April 6th. December 25th was not a "guess" by the Catholic Church. It was just easy to assign a day when the majority of the population was already celebrating... pagan rituals. So in that regard I do agree with the fact that December 25th is not rooted in Christianity. Where do you find the idea that the tree was ORIGINALLY used to represent the Trinity? The Bible implies otherwise, as decorated trees were used by pagans long before they became associated with Christianity. (Now, the three-leaf clover WAS used to represent the Trinity.)
We have not in the past celebrated holidays of other religions, however when my boys get older I do intend to do a little study on other religions and I will *TRY* to correspond our studies with a holiday of that religion and we will 'observe' that holiday as a learning experience, to understand other cultures and religions, we will not really observe it as a religious experience, though I understand that seems wierd. I personally believe that it is important to be knowledgable of other religions, if for no other reason that to be better able to understand why a person doesn't celebrate birthdays, or why they don't eat at certain times of the day, I also think it helps to be less afraid of people who don't believe as you do.
I am assuming you are speaking about Christmas trees? If so, this is an incorrect interpretation of scripture because it is taken out of context. Many people have tried for years to use these few verses to show that the Bible says Christmas trees are wrong. BUT! It is important to remember Christmas trees were not part of a non-existant celebration at that time. The celebration of Christmas didn't come into play for numerous of years. Jeremiah 10:1-16 gives a better understanding of what is being said in verses 2-4. Idols and false gods are the issue Jeremiah 10:1-16 is speaking about, not Christmas trees. I personally have yet to meet a Christian who worships their tree or even considers it a god. Jeremiah 10:1-16 NIV God and Idols 1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." 6 No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power. 7 Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you. 8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols. 9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple— all made by skilled workers. 10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath. 11 "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.' " [a] 12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. 13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses. 14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them. 15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery; when their judgment comes, they will perish. 16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these, for he is the Maker of all things, including Israel, the tribe of his inheritance— the LORD Almighty is his name.
I can try and find the link I used awhile back, but it stated that it was first decorated as a symbol of the Holy Trinity by a monk who was trying to teach about the Holy Trinity. Thus, the "Christmas" tree was born because it was around that time where Christmas was being celebrated. I'm sure a tree was used for other things before then, but that is how the Christmas tree became what is it known for today. If my understanding is correct... I guess what I was trying to state is that they can't pinpoint the actual day so they had to set aside a day...not saying Dec. 25th was their best guess...only stating we can't pinpoint the actual day. Either way, it's the date that was set aside...way before the western world introduced Santa from what I've read. Another reason why Dec 25th was picked that many people may not know about...The 25th of March was also a sacred day to the pagans, when they celebrated the coming of spring and new life. Early Christian traditions also said that this was the day when Mary was told that she would have a special baby, Jesus. This is called the Annunciation and is still celebrated by Christians on the 25th March. Nine months after the 25th March is the 25th December!
If so, this is an incorrect interpretation of scripture because it is taken out of context. Many people have tried for years to use these few verses to show that the Bible says Christmas trees are wrong. BUT! It is important to remember Christmas trees were not part of a non-existant celebration at that time. The celebration of Christmas didn't come into play for numerous of years. Jeremiah 10:1-16 gives a better understanding of what is being said in verses 2-4. Idols and false gods are the issue Jeremiah 10:1-16 is speaking about, not Christmas trees. I personally have yet to meet a Christian who worships their tree or even considers it a god. YES, right on! I was just reading about this the other day actually. If you widle something out of wood and worship it like a false idol, then YES it's wrong...duh. lol But...we don't dance around the tree and bow down to it at Christmas time or pray to it. Eek.
http://godwoman.blogspot.com/2009/12/holy-trinity-and-christmas-tree.html Here is one, but this isn't as informative as others I have seen.
Not true. Jerimiah, where it is said that you shouldn't take part in the pagan tradition of decorating trees and such, is from the Old Testament ... as in before there even was a Christ. The decorated fir tree was borrowed from the pagans. How about the one above? I may be wrong. It is my perception that most people believe that that is his actual birth. LOL... Ya got me there!
I think the point wasn't that we shouldn't have a Christmas tree. It was that if you attempt to remove all pagan-related holiday traditions, you have very little left. Decorated trees were used by pagans long before they were used by Christians. Same story for decorated eggs. I guess my point was that if you're going to abstain from a holiday because of pagan roots, you should carry that argument to every applicable point: not just pick and choose which pagan symbols you want to use and which you don't. The Holy Spirit has never told me to abstain from celebrating Halloween, so I don't. If He ever did, I would expect it would be for the same reasons that I'd cease to put up a tree or dye eggs. Pagan is pagan is pagan. Or it's not pagan. There is no middle ground. I know I'm probably not being clear. I guess it boils down to I don't like double standards.
I had a couple of thoughts about what is being said in this post. First, a Christian needs to be careful about trusting in where their heart is leading them. The Bible tells us that “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) We need to reason on the scriptures and follow the principles and commands that are provided in God's word. Second, there is only one observance that we are commanded in the Bible to keep and that is the memorial of Christ's death. (Lu 22:19; 1Co 11:24) It was to be an annual observance that would replace the passover. Celebrating holidays that have unchristian roots for religious or non-religious purposes would not be in harmony with the scriptures (see Eph. 5:10,11; 2 Cor. 6:14-18) Consider the account at Exodus 32:4-10. The Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice but gave it a new name, “a festival to Jehovah.” They were severely punished for their act. Today it may appear to some that the pagan roots are gone but Jehovah observed firsthand the pagan religious practices from which these originated. If God wanted us to celebrate holidays wouldn't he have commanded us to do just that? Instead he warns us about incorporating false religion with true religion. Third, a true Christian is separate from the world (those alienated from God). Jesus said that his followers would be "no part of the world," and be "without spot from the world." (John 15:19; James 1:27) Each of us has to decided for ourself if we will chose God or the world. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 tell us that if we chose God it means "listening to his voice," and "sticking to him." This means always taking God's view on matters and never our own. A Christian can not pick and choose what he wants to do or not do. It is an all or nothing thing. (Revelation 3:16)
I'm pretty sure Patty already pointed out the real meaning of the Scripture that you quoted which has nothing to do with having a Christmas tree in your home. And I already posted a link about the tradition of the tree as it is referred to Christmas. Not saying or ever said it wasn't used for other things beforehand...just correlating it to how it started as a CHRISTMAS tradition! Pagans used it as a false idol, wheras Christians started using it as a symbol for Christianity and soon used it as a Christmas tradition. And I don't believe for a second that most people actually believe Christ was born on the 25th of Dec. We talk about this regularly during the Christmas season at our church, and if one involves themself with a Bible study, they will soon learn it's not the actual day.
Maybe I am misunderstanding. I'm reading what you posted and my understanding of these verses is still that we are not supposed to participate in the "worthless customs" of the pagans (and then some of them are referenced, including decorating fir trees). As far as I can tell, you can take it one of two ways. Either... A.) It's okay to participate in the pagan customs as long as you change them to where you aren't worshiping false idols and they have no pagan meaning to you. Which means that Halloween is okay as long as you aren't actually worshiping other gods who aren't important because they didn't create the heavens and the earth and will perish. Or... B.) It's not okay to participate in pagan customs, which means no Christmas, Easter, or Halloween. What am I missing?
This explanation neglects the fact that trees were being decorated at the exact same time of year to celebrate the exact same holiday that the Christians borrowed from the pagans. Again... while it's true that his actual birthday can't be pinpointed, this day was picked specifically because the Catholics were trying to attract pagans into their church by adopting their pagan customs, not because they thought it was a good guess of when Christ's birthday was. These are great examples of the lies I was speaking of... I guess it might be more fair to say "twisted truths"... either way... it's propaganda being used to lead people away from the actual truth.
