I was speaking to a friend one day and I found a way to share with her how I felt, because sometimes people think that if you are against prosperity preaching, you are against God prospering people. I told her I have a problem with people coming to God in order to prosper. God is not our personal bank. God knows what we really need and frankly we are so comfortable here in the U. S. already that if many of us prospered more than we already do--we may just comfort ourselves into hell. I am so tired of people promoting the "blessings" that they want from God. Are we blind? We are already so blessed. The Israelites were saved from slavery only to complain about the food that they were provided with every single time they needed it. I think God does bless with material things, but He also blesses us with grace and forgiveness and peace and a renewed life. Those material things will fade away, the others can stay with us for eternity. Personally I hope to never be rich, at least not in the way the world the world defines rich. I want to depend on God and not fall into thinking that I don't need Him every day. I say let's praise God:love: for who He is. Let's thank Him for our very lives. Let's thank Him for everything we have and everything we can do. Let's wake up and help our neighbors. Let's get busy and share His love in real and tangible ways. And, while we do that, if God blesses us materially, let's thank Him again and keep busy. If He chooses to bless us in other ways, let's thank Him and keep busy. I don't want to live my life in waiting for that big blessing to come. I want to live my life in honor of Him, regardless of whatever "things" may or may not come into my life.
Oooh I jumping on my soapbox now! (Don't worry cabsmom40, I agree) Where the like button!? When ds was dx with autism, we had some prosperity gospel "friends" tell us if we had enough faith God would "cure" him. There was no purpose in him being "that way". Believe me, it took all I had to keep from snatching out their eyeballs. God doesn't make mistakes and there IS a purpose to everything God does or allows. Ds is NOT a mistake. He doesn't need "cured", I love him just the way he is! Sorry about that. I'll climb off the soapbox now. Didn't mean to spit on the computer screen, sorry. Hope ya'll didn't get any of that shower.:wink: Marty
I am so with you! As North American's we are all prospering by the standards of most of the world. We have higher incomes, better housing, better health care. (Even what we thing is bad, is better than many in the world). Oh, and didn't Jesus say something like "take up your Cross and follow me"? I don't think a cross has much to do with prosperity! We are not meant to have perfect lives, we are meant to know God's peace through all the storms of life. Anyway, some people really seem to find God through that teaching. So I'm sure God can use them, but I wish they wouldn't judge those of us who haven't had a perfect ride in life! I'm sure one day in heaven we'll all realize we had mistakes in our theology.
There is no excuse for accumulating wealth. While the Lord may choose some who are wealthy and may bless others with wealth, there's no doubt that it's their duty to share it all with those in need. It's the Lord's money, and we are but stewards. The NT is abundantly clear about this. In particular, 2 Corinthians 8 (12-15): Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have. Of course, I don’t mean your giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves. I only mean that there should be some equality. Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal. As the Scriptures say, “Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough.” I highlighted the words 'equality' and 'equal'. There are no bones about this: If we have access to healthy drinking water, we must ensure our brothers and sisters around the world do too. If we have access to medical treatment, we must ensure our brothers and sisters in other countries do too. If we have access to education, we must make sure our brothers and sisters elsewhere do as well. What else can 'equal' possibly mean? (Incidentally, these verses also speak against giving what we don't have - which means I don't believe in an arbitrary tithe of so many percent. If we don't have, we shouldn't give. One day, we'll have plenty and can help those without.) IMHO, those who preach a prosperity gospel have a lot to answer for. They should remember the words of the Lord Jesus himself: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." These words are consistent with Jesus' attitude towards wealth throughout the gospels. I hear people explain this away: Oh, but Jesus is attacking the love of money, not money. No, it's more than that. Why would Paul urge us to give until there's equality? The problem is that we've become so wrapped up in the norms of capitalist society (where wealth is king) and obsessed with personal rights (it's my money and property) that we no longer see the importance of the Bible's teaching in this area. Being wealthy must be one of the hardest of all burdens to bear, and I've always worried about being successful in business because I'll have to deal with the matter personally. I remember seeing a very pertinent cartoon strip about this (I can't find it, so I'll have to remember as best I can). Someone is answering questions in order to get into Heaven. Yes, I attended church every Sunday. Yes, I believed in a Young Earth. Yes, I had a Fish bumper sticker. Yes, I said Grace before every meal....What do you mean, did I give away all my wealth? Surely that was metaphorical?
Sigh.... I am not in the "health and wealth" camp, but I've sure heard enough of it while a student at Oral Roberts. I found it a very frustrating issue. Especially when the President's Office was remade, and has gold-plated bathroom fixtures. The students were frustrated with that, as most of us were working hard to raise tuition. But when Carl and I were engaged, he attended a H&W kind of church. But they were different from what I saw at ORU. While I still didn't agree with the H&W views, they said that God blesses His people SO THEY CAN BLESS OTHERS. That last line is the kicker. If God has blessed us, then we need to use that to bless others. And, more importantly, I saw this church doing exactly that. It wasn't "you need to give to God through ME so I can buy a new car every year". It was "give to us, and we will invest it in needs in the community, etc." AND THEY DID JUST THAT! For example, they gave another congregation a van to use in their ministry. I do believe in "seed faith"...the idea of giving out of your need for a specific reason. I also believe that poverty is a result of sin. Now, I am NOT saying that all poor people are "terrible sinners"!!! Some are living in poverty as a result of their own sin, yes. My dss is a prime example. His lifestyle choices keep him in poverty. But others live in poverty due to someone sinning AGAINST them. And usually it's the result of being oppressed by the "rich". God DOES promise to provide all our NEEDS. But we often confuse NEEDS with WANTS. My children take piano lessons, play soccer, and one rides horses. Those all cost. Yes, I think they are "important", but they are not NEEDS. We can get by without them. I also believe that only through our being obedient through giving first of our tithes, and in addition as we see the need and feel God's direction. If we are not willing to bless, God will not bless us. OK, feel like I'm rambling now! Sorry! (I've only been interrupted three times, so that may be why it seems so disjointed!)
I like what you wrote Jackie. I have a question though. If people are blessed through tithes, what about the people that I know that NEVER go to church, never speak of God in a positive way, how do they have fortunes and there are those who struggle? Any thoughts on that? :love:
prosperity without purpose is pointless I agree that Westerners are rich. We have so much. But the purpose of wealth in the hands of a Christian should look different than wealth in the hands of the non-Christian.
Steve, not that I entirely disagree with your point, but you have to watch how you make it. The camel through the eye of a needle story is a sticky, tricky, point. The problem with that man was his ATTITUDE! If you look at the very. next. story, it's the story of Zachius. He was also a VERY wealthy man. But Jesus was content with the fact that Zachius made restitution (plus interest. lol) to the people he had stolen from. He was not commanded to give up all of his wealth. It was an attitude issue, and Zachius has the right attitude. I certainly don't believe that, as Christians, we should live in a state of poverty. Unless we are explicity called it, of course. I believe that we have an obligation to care for our family, first and foremost. I believe strongly in the message of Dave Ramsey, which isn't to gather wealth for wealth's sake. But to be a good steward of what the Lord gives us. Being a good steward means ensuring your doing the best you can with what you have for your family. This can mean things like having a life insurance policy, investing for retirement and college, etc. I don't think that just because a person raises themself out of one socio-economic level and into the next that they are out of the will of God. That being said, I do agree 100% with the OP: God does not lead all of his children down a road to riches. (Steve, I also find it interesting that you, who has been so outspoken against socialism, is emphasizing the need for equality in all areas. That seems... well... obviously a contradiction.)
I agree. Why would Paul exhort believers to give until there is equality? It seems to me that the disparity between rich and poor ("the poor will always be with you") is deliberate. 1) It allows Christians to demonstrate to the world that we are different. We are prepared to give sacrificially (really sacrificially) with, in return, no prospect of earthly reward. It's a very visible sign of our commitment to Christ. 2) It establishes genuine bonds of love among believers. Those who are without will praise God for His provision. Those with resources will pray for believers around the world who are suffering. Each will pray for the other and share one another's burdens. Without sacrificial giving, the bonds among us would be shallow. When Pope John Paul the First (not Second) died, there were all kinds of conspiracy theories involving a secret society known as the Black Friars. The very next day, that pope had planned to announce to the world that the Catholic Church would sell all its many riches in order to help the poor. Just imagine that! Just imagine the impact it would have had! Instead, so the conspiracy goes, the Black Friars (who ran the Vatican Bank, etc.) ensured the pope didn't live to see that day. Now, that would have been a unique situation because of the visibility to the pope. But imagine the world's reaction if every believer on the planet gave until it hurt - and protected believers elsewhere from poverty, disease, oppression, lack of facilities, and lack of education? The world would see just how much our Lord means to us! Once again, Does it look different?
I'd have to look up the verse...but there is one that says (paraphased) "God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike". What that means is that just because you are His doesn't mean you won't have trials. I think the reverse can be true. Just because you are not His doesn't mean he can't bless. I often wonder if for some people, He does that in order to get their attention - in the way that they are not fulfilled even with all their wealth, etc. I don't know. Now...I am NOT in the Health/Wealth camp AT ALL. I get so offended by them, acutally. I have fibromyalgia - I'd be rich if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that I have this due to unrepentant sin. Thanks. That feels so much better. Now...on the tithes thing. ALL I HAVE BELONGS TO GOD, the fact that He lets me keep any of it is a blessing. We don't limit ourselves to 10%, we give whatever we can, whenever we can.
Good point, Embassy! Katie, GOD'S people are blessed through tithes/giving. Malachi 3 talks about how the people are "robbing" God by giving the tithe and offerings, and the consequences of that. Yes, there are plenty of financially rich folk who are just plain EVIL people. There always will be. But can you truely say they are "blessed"? And how many people has all they need...maybe not much more than that...and ARE blessed? We are not rich. I get so frustrated because every time we seem to be making headway with what little debt we have, something comes up to set us back. But we have everything we NEED, and a lot more besides. We ARE blessed! I need to learn to keep my eyes on what I DO have, and off of what I DON'T have. Who am I to complain that God hasn't blessed me "enough"? God "owes" us NOTHING! I think so many people will pay the tithe out of obligation. It's a MUST instead of an act of love. Yes, I feel it's a "requirement", but one I give willingly, not grudgingly. I look at submission to my husband the same way. It's a "requirement" (IMHO), but one I willing agree to do, not a yoke of slavery. But I don't think God will bless our "gift" if it's given grudgingly, just like a complaining act of submission isn't real submission. I also believe God will not bless a gift with the ulterior motive of getting rich! And this is different from seed faith IMHO. One is "GIVE ME! GIVE ME!", the other is humbly presenting our need or the desire of our heart before the Lord, and giving out of that need.
That's always been true for us, but I've learned to turn this on its head: Just before we need funds for something unexpected, the Lord provides them.
I'm not in the health/wealth prosperity preaching camp either. I think many good thoughts were expressed on the thread so i won't bore you all with mine. Just putting in my vote. LOL.
Thank you everyone. I was really expecting some backlash. And I know that not everyone agrees with this viewpoint. I have been going through some very deep thoughts lately, even feeling convicted by the Holy Spirit. I was reading something I had read before about how many people don't have enough food and how many children are dying every day. This time when I read it, I became very sad. In fact, my son asked what was so sad. I couldn't even read it aloud without crying. I mean, here I am -- I have my health, plenty of food (too much), a car, clothes, shelter, air condition, a relatively good paying job, a great family, a loving church, working eyes, good hearing, the ability to walk, clean water, and even some extras--such as money for my hobby-quilting ---and still I find things to gripe about (sometimes out loud, sometimes just in my mind). What is wrong with this picture? I would be just like the unthankful Israelites. I am just like them. Oh, God please help me be truly thankful and joyful and loving. I want to help and sometimes I do, but it doesn't feel like enough. There is so much suffering, while I live in luxury (compared to so many). I want to hug all the hurting people and feed all the hungry. Well, OK, I know I can't help everyone. But, I need to start somewhere. As far as the prosperity preaching goes, what happens when the people who follow these preachers face incredible difficuties, financial or otherwise? Do they feel that God has abandoned them? They need to know that God can take then through the Valley of the shadow of death and still be with them. Some of the most thankful people are the one who have faced the hardest difficulties. Not that suffering isn't horrible, but sometimes it can bring about blessings. I can even attest to that, I went through a horrible depression and was as low as I ever thought a person can be. I didn't think I would ever be really joyful in my life. I thought the best I could do is deal with it and go through the motions. BUT, God saw me and lifted me up and out of that despair and gave me JOY. I wouldn't want to go back, but it gave me a better appreciation for small things and more joy than I had before it. Here is something I wrote a few years ago: I was oppressed--But NO more! I was locked in depression--but NO more! My God held the key that set me free. My view was full of darkness--but NO more! My future filled with bleakness--but NO more! My God had bountiful joy for me. He saw where I was and said, "NO MORE"!
This is one of those posts that I probably should not submit...but here it goes. I am not for prosperity preaching but I am far more against the opposite side of the coin. Someone has to make the money to give the money. Someone had to own and build the (big, bad) corporation to hire employees, (one of which employs my husband). That is not the problem for me. The one thing that sends up big red flags to me are the hypocrites, who say one thing and live another right before our eyes but do not even seem aware of their hypocrisy or are aware but still go on talking the talk as if you cannot see it. Those who seem to have noble words and say we Westerners have so much more--and I agree we do--but then these same people have even more than the average family in the U.S. while shaming everyone else for what they have above a family in Africa or India or wherever. Perhaps wealth is relative to them because they may not have as much as their neighbors when they live in half-a-mil up neighborhoods and I am sure everyone is struggling more in this economy, but really!? I honestly don't care how much anyone else is making nor in what they believe, I am content with what the Lord has entrusted to each and everyone, so in my mind there is no reason to preach to others about how to go about their business. What you do with money should be a personal thing between God and you, so my only question I would ask for someone to think over is pretty much the same one I have when people talk about their children being in public school: Have you even asked God about what His will is in this situation? I think that was the point Jesus was making when He talked to those with wealth...seek God first.
I do not believe in using God as our personal bank, as in "give *this* ministry $10 and God will give you back $1000 because He has promised to bless 100-fold" kind of thing. I do believe that if we have pledged a certain amount or a certain percent, we should keep our pledge, and give offerings besides. I believe that you can't make an "offering" unless you have already kept your pledge. I would much prefer to give a hungry person a sandwich than to contribute to a "fund" that has employees and administration fees and transportation costs and whatnot. It makes me think of the man -- of course, I can't think of his name so maybe some of you can help me out here -- who began to tithe 10%. But then he gradually increased his contribution until he was giving 90% and living on 10%. Not everyone could do that, of course! But it's good to remember that to whom much is given, much will be required. I have a car that runs pretty well. I can't give anybody a car, but I can give people a ride to the store, to church, to an appointment, who doesn't have a car. I can't do everything for everybody, but this is one thing I can do. Actually, I can't drive anymore until after I get my cataract surgery done, but dh drives.
