True, but some things are a matter of public record. You practically advertised your businesses here, remember?
Yes, I've mentioned my business from time to time and am grateful for the help and advice that many have offered. From such information, though, it's quite a leap to "doubt that many of the people on this message board could afford to pay the property taxes you do" and hence to conclude that I'm a "hypocrite." Am I not free to express my passion for helping those in terrible need, or to point out the Bible's teaching in this area?
Steve, you haven't by any chance run into Pastor Stephens in Bangalore, have you? He's an Indian man, runs a children's home in that area....
Sorry, Jackie, I haven't. The man running the projects I visited ran some kind of inter-faith organization and worked with people of many faiths (we were supporting a Christian group that worked with him). As I remember, he had given up a lucrative business career in order to help about 300 families in the slum areas of Bangalore. His was quite an inspiring story. The only other Christian group I know in India is based in the Nilgiri Hills (farther south), and they provide medical and other support to Christian families there. India is a huge place, so I have no doubt there are many projects in and around Bangalore. BTW, India is one of my favorite countries. Its people are so wonderful, and they are deep thinkers. When visiting Goa, I learned that the apostle Thomas is supposed to be buried in that region, and so is Francis Xavier (who wrote a couple of beautiful hymns). If you ever come across books by E. Stanley Jones (difficult to find these days), I highly recommend them. He was an American missionary to the intellectual classes in India during the Gandhi era, and his writing reveals so much about the spirit of India. Of course, in our era, Ravi Zacharias attracts large numbers of Indian Christians living in this country. When I heard him speak once in Atlanta, I was amazed at how many Indian families were in attendance. It was heart-warming. I must tell you this. One of the most beautiful sights I have ever witnessed was in Bombay after returning from a trip to Pune. We were driving along a major road right next to the world's biggest slum. Our car had to stop because of a school bus stopping in front of us. Down the steps of the bus bounced a young girl in her school uniform and holding her satchel. She ran into the slum. Somewhere, in that stench and mass of humanity was a family sacrificing all they had so their little girl could attend school - and break out of their cycle of poverty. Since you mentioned that you're sponsoring a child, your family is giving another child the chance to break free from the curse of poverty! Somewhere in India, that child is smiling and bouncing down the steps of a school bus - because of your sacrifice. Personal giving makes a world of difference.
I did not say you were a hypocrite, I merely described what I find to be hypocrisy. I am the first to admit I am a hypocrite, but I would also add I have yet to meet anyone who is not...we may not like admitting to this aspect of sin but I am sure it is in everyone of us. Of course, Steve, you can express anything you like...and I have the freedom to do the same. You see, I have a difficult time when you bring up things like not choosing power windows because of the extra cost, when typically that is not even an option unless you are buying a brand new vehicle...at least, in my experience of buying used vehicles, no one has suggested it as an option. Power windows are either already on a used car or not. So, my thoughts go to things like maybe you could have saved thousands more just by buying a used vehicle...? I really don't know. As you say, I don't know all about your circumstances, but when you express opinions, people are going to glean from what you have left. As for TV evangelists, the flip side is they also raise hundreds of thousands of dollars that are used to employ Christian people in their organizations and send out to help others. I know that I cannot do anything of that magnitude and I don't really know you, but I think it is safe to say you haven't done such either. Each of us should be using our gifts in the Lord's service according to His will and letting our Lord be Lord. We should be praying for such people to be listening to God and perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt by considering the possibility that the gold watches may have been gifts of appreciation from people they helped or friends.
For sure, and probably in me more than most. I understand, but such gleanings may not be right - so a little caution is warranted. Choosing a used car without automatic windows, for example, also costs less than a used car with them. Maybe I didn't give a good example (and I'm glad I didn't use the example of a private jet with cloth seats instead of leather seats ). This is a difficult one. On a business trip once to California, I stopped by the Crystal Cathedral. I'd heard that the cost of building this church was about the cost of the US foreign aid budget for that year. (It turns out to be an exaggeration, but it still cost a fortune.) While there, I bumped into a youth pastor who was from El Salvador. Maybe it was an unfair question, but I asked him how anyone could justify such an expense when Christians live in poverty in his country. Yes, Shuller can rake in the tens of millions, but he must answer to God for how those funds are used - especially having seen the extravagance so evident in that place. We could eradicate entire diseases with that kind of money. And the big fund-raisers are the exceptions. Another interesting statistic is that, as of January 2009, a total of $6.2 billion was raised to help victims of the tsunami that hit Asia in December 2004. Nearly two-thirds of that total came from the United States. The US federal government provided $841 million in aid. Most revealingly, $2.78 billion (or 45% of all aid given from around the world) came from ordinary American citizens. The median donation was $50, and the average donation was $135. In other words, it doesn't take big name evangelists to raise large sums - and, in some cases, to be corrupted by them. The Spirit of God can work behind the scenes, touching the hearts of individuals, to achieve far, far more.
I think it is hard to say what is the correct amount for someone to own. But, there is a general uneasiness when we see preachers living above what Americans consider luxury or well-off. I can't say where the cut off line is in God's viewpoint, but I know when I get upset. Of course, that is hypocritical of me, because someone could say that I have life too easy. What should we sacrifice? Again, that is something we can't judge as humans. Should we live without air condition (even here in Texas) and send the money we save? Should we only eat peanut butter and jelly and drink water? It is very interesting that this thread has gone in this direction, but I love the way conversations can evolve and open up related subjects. I like to quilt and although I don't do as much as I would like, it is costly. A small toddler size quilt might cost $40 or more and that is if I do the actual quilting myself. If I have someone else quilt it the cost can double. I large quilt can cost $100 to several hundred. I have never made a real large blanket. The machine I use cost around $350. Anyway, I could say that I should give this up and use that money to help someone else. p.s. those estimates are probably low, because I have never really added up the total cost.
I often think of how much is wasted when someone with a ton of money buys a million dollar car or a $100,000 watch. But...I don't think they are wrong for buying their items. It's their money, they can do what they want. I don't think it's a sin to be rich. It's a sin to love money or idolize it. Does overspending on luxury items mean you are sinning? I don't think so. I think that's a personal choice. Well, I have only picked around at this conversation and I think my point may be off a bit...so I'll stop. LOL. It's late. lol
I think it is helpful to remember that all we have belongs to God. We are to be good stewards of what He has entrusted to us. The life of a Christian in this world is not to be about stuff, but people. Investment in stuff for the sake of having stuff isn't being a good steward. Those with money should be vessels that God uses to flow money out to His needs rather than a stopping place gathering stuff. A person with money can have a huge impact by giving.
Ava...guess what...we agree! It's all about heart condition. If your treasure is money that's where your heart is going to be. You are right Embassy. It is about people. It's important to remember that Jesus' primary interest was to help people spiritually. Jesus did take the lead in helping the poor, the sick, and the hungry but he primarily taught his disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom. (Matthew 10:7,8) Among his final instructions to them Jesus said, “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations.” (Matthew 28:19,20) Preaching opens the way for someone to have everlasting benefits. (John 17:3) What good does it do to give a poor person everything they have ever wanted if they do not know God?
And those "small" donations came from ordinary people who are struggling to pay the bills. The "small" people come through. They always have. But the "big" people don't. The ones that "have much" also "hoard much". And yes, I know that is a generalization. But our government people, both Reps and Dems, are quick to pass laws taking OUR money and giving it, while at the same time hoarding their own.
I would just like to point out one more thing and then I am done with this point of reference, power windows and leather seats cost more not only because of the materials themselves but also because more people were employed or paid for the materials in the making of them. I can give money to people who are needy and I can also buy things that paid for the family's food and housing, like that of the people employed to make power windows. For the used car, saleman's family makes more money when you buy a higher priced one with power windows. Is there anyone on this board who can support their families without people buying something? Charity is a good thing, but it can also make people reliant on it, too. There are times when it is not a good thing to help too much and I have even been led by the Lord not to give to certain people who were in obvious need. I remember one woman who was physically incapable of continuing to work her husband's lawn mowing business. He was in prison and it was her only means of income, but she really could not do it. She could not fix lawn mowers, she could not take the heat of Florida to do the yard work, and often she did not have a working lawn mower. My husband fixed a lawn mower and bought her a good used lawn mower when it was beyond fixing, but it was obvious that her situation would not improve. We discussed with her about finding a job, something inside, perhaps being a waitress, so that she could afford her cottage and eat. She said she would NEVER be a waitress and that she would continue with the lawn mowing service until her husband got out of prison--he was in for life this time. We have since learned to listen to the Lord about to whom we give and how much and when. Sometimes we can get in the way, when the Lord is allowing a person to go to the lowest level so he can get past his pride and listen to God's purpose for him also. Another problem is that we often buy things in huge chain stores and we do not see the people who we are really paying all along the way: farmers, truckers, etc. My husband met this man who worked on a project for one of Bill Gates' homes. It was a huge mechanism that would allow them to pull into the garage and then it would turn their cars for them so they did not have to back out and one was installed in each bay. Silly, perhaps, to many of us and, yes, they could just give their money and support practically an entire small country of needy people, but...they employed people and those employees also supported people and all of them can chose to give some money to others. Without people finding value in such luxuries, other people would not be employed. Someone is going to be at the top of the heap so it all can trickle down, but if one chooses to criticize those at the top of such heaps, I would simply ask in which heap is he currently where it is trickling down to him? I have no problem with people having money, I have a problem with people who are not listening to the Lord in how to use it, whether they have money or not, and it is a personal thing. Each of us has our own purpose in the God's Kingdom. I also have been reminded often of late about the parable of the talents and how God gives more to those who will put it to good work. I am not saying that all rich people are listening to God, nor are all Christians to be rich, but to prosper...yes, I believe all Christians are to prosper, but my definition of prospering might be very different than the world's and even some Christian teachings.
You got me thinking, Seeking (as you so often do)..... Here's a hard thought to swallow, but it's truth. There nothing in this world, except land, that we MUST buy. Think about it.... really think about it. If we own land, we can craft our own tools, grow our own food, etc. Ok, so you might need to buy or barter for animals and seeds. But beyond that? The human race survived for hundreds of generations without other people doing the work for you. And really, that's what's happening, right? I mean, if a farmer sells the food to the grocery store, who sells the food to you, what you are really paying for is someone to do the work for you. You could grow your own corn and cut out all the middle-men. And the more complex the product, the more middle-men. 99% of what our money goes to is luxury. Can we live an adequate life without electricity? Heck yeah. Would it be difficult and often miserable? Of course. Can we live without a home? Yes. Buy land with trees, cut the trees, build a structure.... We dont' need to rent or buy a house. That's a luxury. Ok, so I'm thinking in extremes. But that seems to be the idea of this thread: we ALL spend hundreds of dollars a month on things we don't NEED to buy. So, as someone else said, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say, "my luxury spending is at an acceptable point, but that guy's is not?" Dare we even answer that question?
While I agree that we should not give if our heart isn't in it, I think that we should reserve judgement on if people are doing enough on their own end. Poor people work hard, often harder than those who have much. And, dare I say, if you judge how you give based on the person's performance then you are not giving out of love, but based on a person's merit. I understand that some believe this, but I don't see this expressed in the Bible. God uses us to do good to others. We can't judge a person's spiritual condition based on financial standing. They are unrelated. The poorest can be the strongest in faith. God sends His rain on the just and unjust. Maybe the person in severe need is that way because he is being attacked by the devil. Maybe the person with much isn't attacked by the devil much because he isn't too dangerous to the kingdom. But giving is not about trickle-down economics. Buying something to provide money to others on the totem pole isn't reason enough to be lavish. Most of those profits end up in the pockets of people who already have much. I am reminded of what it says in James "27Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."
ok, so we have come to a pet peeve of mine. I haven't seen the Crystal Cathedral...but I love old, detailed, magnificent Church buildings. I want stained glass and vaulted ceilings. I am tired of churches in metal buildings and folding chairs. I think there is value in the Cathedrals of old and I think we are depriving our great grands in that we are not building them. And building is economy and this young man from El Salvador has an opportunity...that he probably worked hard for. Now, this does not excuse the gold toilet fixtures and the fancy cars. and I am not going to speak to prosperity preaching. But I am all for the building fund.
I'm so glad you said that. I used to be Catholic and one thing I so desperately miss from my Catholic days are the beautiful church buildings. There is a feeling of awe and reverence that modern box-buildings just don't have. There is even something stirring about the darkness of the only light being filtered through stained glass. The very physicality of the environment can draw a person into the attitude of humbleness and serventude. Please don't misunderstand, I think there are also times for rejoicing and praise, but sometimes modern American Christians lack perspective that our Father and Friend is also the most Holy King.
You also wouldn't have any time to do anything other than survive. We have more to do on this earth than survive. 2 Corinthians says "7Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work." Money for the Christian should meet his needs and beyond that it is to give to every good work. Needs are subjective and it is between a person and God. At the same time I think there are some obvious "over the top" purchases like a $300,000 vehicle. 9As it is written"
First of all, I disagree that all we'd have time to do is survive. It's simply not true. You need only look to history to see that. Primative peoples who were entirely self-sufficient still had time for feasts and celebrations and dancing and famiily. Second, I am not advocating a base lifestyle. I am pointing out that if we were all honest, we all live in luxury all day every day. So, to criticize people who also live in luxury (just more so than we do) is pure hypocracy. Who are we to say what is or isn't "over the top?" Consider that the Amish believe most of the population lives over the top. Consider that entire African villages could be saved from disease and starvation by what a handful of us spend on electricity in a single month. So why is middle-class "over the top" somehow better than upper-class "over the top?"
