God likes variety, and giving those that NEED him an helping hand out...even those that don't acknowledge his presence. I doubt God ignores those who need him even though they may not speak kindly to him...we are ALL God's children, each and everyone of us and he blesses us ALL! As for prosperity preaching...I don't have too much of a comment. God has blessed in so many ways: healthy children, our own health, the sun shine, and a world where my chidren can go outside and roll around in the grass (not sure what he was thinking when he invented bugs though....JK) Most of us don't see that, IMO. God GRANTS us challenges: my brother w/ autism and epilepsy, our son w/ developmental difficulties (for example) because he knows we can handle it and he wants to see how we can take our own difficulties and turn them into Prosperities! God GRANTS us difficulties so we can overcome, and in turn help those who may be struggling with the same difficulty and to give them hope/love just like god has always given us. God isn't going to zap a Porche in my driveway, but he is definately generous in SO many other ways!
I honestly cannot remember, and I'm not sure I'd recognize it if I heard it... 8^( ETA: Okay, I've googled the name, but all the articles that mentioned his tithing only say he went up to 50%. I'm certain the one I'm thinking of went up to 90%, so it may be a different guy.
I read Colgate went to 90% but I cannot say that I know for sure. It is also said that Heinz and Kraft both tithed high percentages.
In what sense? The Bible is very clear: We are to give until there is equality. In context, this was an exhortation for believers in Corinth to give to needy believers in Jerusalem - so we're talking about helping believers in other countries. What exactly are you against? If you're referring to preachers in the limelight who eat up broadcasting time pleading for money while they live in mansions, own fancy cars, and fly in private jets, I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure that I'd refer to their words as noble, though. In a sense, yes. On the other hand, Christian leaders should be making very clear that we are to give until there is equality among believers (worldwide). This is the bible's clear teaching. Since plenty are preaching a prosperity gospel, which is unbiblical, then those who trust in the Bible's actual words should be helping to make them clear. Jesus was very vocal against financial wealth and put the wealthy young man on the spot, so shouldn't we echo his teaching? In part, we're blinded because we live in a society that is fixated with money. We also live under a form of government that puts the individual fairly and squarely at the center (it's my money, my property, my rights, my vote, etc.). I suspect this is why prosperity preaching is largely a US phenomenon.
I couldn't agree more. We have it so good. We have been blessed so many times over. Even as those outside the faith put it, we won the lottery by being born in the developed world and not into a nation with desperate needs. Why? There's only one reason: So we can demonstrate the goodness of God and our love for him. We have the opportunity to be good stewards and to show that we truly care for the body of Christ worldwide. It brings us closer to them, and it helps us to be truly thankful for God's daily provision.
Steve, I'm surprised you haven't responded to my questions of you. Are you feeling Ok? I thought for sure you'd jump at the chance to 'put me in my place.' (ok, so I'm joking about you putting my in place, of course. lol)
I believe I express myself clearly on the matter, Steve. There is NOTHING in the Bible where God is demanding of every Christian to give until there is EQUALITY worldwide all the time. Sorry, but that reference is soooo out of context! It was for a time with a very specific situation. Eve Jesus said there will always be the poor! But, let's say that is what God would have us do that at all times. Are you living this communal kind of life, where you really own nothing but everyone has access to your things as they have the need? Nope, they are obvious. I was referring to those who are not behind a pulpit, but are still preaching. I really don't know how you get that in your Bible about Christian giving to equality worldwide when the scripture reference was about a very specific circumstance, but, Steve, you really don't want to go there. There is the difference between actually listening to the Holy Spirit speak to you as an individual and trying to bind Christians to another law-based misconception pulled out of the Bible. Have you sold your house to live in a hut now? Do you walk to work? Where is the equality in how you live in comparison to fellow Christians in other parts of the world? I seriously doubt that many of the people on this message board could afford to pay the property taxes you do and half of the people worldwide don't make that kind of money in a lifetime, which I am sure you would be the first to admit, right? So, did you mean that we need to bring them all up to our level without making significant sacrifices in our own lifestyles? This is the hypocrisy of which I was speaking. People like Gandhi and Mother Teresa were effective because they did not just believe what they preached, they lived it.
I must confess that I missed your earlier post - sorry. So, are you ready to be put in your place? You're right, but I do think we tend to use this as a cop-out along the following lines: (i) I'm rich. (ii) Jesus said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for me to enter the Kingdom of Heaven - gulp. (iii) Ah, but Jesus was testing this man's love of money, his attitude - phew. (iv) I have the right attitude and am willing to give away all my money. (v) So now I know my attitude is right, I can keep my riches. Where shall I eat out tonight? In the meantime, while I wrote this, several believers in Christ died of preventable disease or starvation. In this, Seeking is right. It comes down to our personal situation and response: We can choose to give or not to give. Each of us handles this in different ways. As I mentioned elsewhere, because I've visited countries with severe poverty and seen some of the world's largest slums, I can't help but think in their currency. Why pay that $800 extra for automatic windows on a new car? That's two years' salary for them. Why buy my children another pack of baseball cards? That's a week's salary for them. Why go on an expensive vacation? They have never had, and never will have, a vacation. I wish I could avoid this comparison, but I can't. In my case, the Lord convicts me based on my past travel experiences. That's not to say this is how everyone should be. Our situations are different, and the Lord knows our hearts. Still, I do think it's important that we remember the Bible's command for there to be equality among believers. We will have to answer for the way we manage the resources God has assigned temporarily to us. There is a very big difference: In socialism, the government, at point of law, forces the rich to give up their money for the supposed good of the poor. In communist countries (and I've visited a few), everything pretty much belongs to the government, and they dish out resources as they see fit. As Christians, we are called to give sacrificially to others in the body of Christ. Only when we do so by choice is it a witness to others. Where's the witness when everyone is coerced? In other countries, you'll often find that Christians are left-wing in their politics. The US is a bit of an outlier in that respect. I've mentioned before that the states in India with most Christian influence are those that have elected communist officials. They tend to emphasize the importance of equality but overlook the fact that it must be voluntary. They assume their money is not their own, which is good, but they give ownership to the government, which is not so good. In the US, we emphasize the voluntary and tend to overlook the importance of equality. In my reading of Scripture, both are equally important. Does this help to resolve the contradiction?:lol:
Actually, it makes sense to me. The early church in Acts pooled their resources, but it was voluntary. Even Ananias and Sapphira's sin wasn't the holding back of their funds/possissions, but the lying about it. We send funds to other countries. We support an Indian pastor, and also have a Sponsered Child through World Vision. But the equality you're talking about simply isn't possible in a fallen world.
Let me quote from those verses again: Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal. As the Scriptures say, “Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough.” This is as general an exhortation as any other in the New Testament. Indeed, the goal is crystal clear: “Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough.” Instead, as the OP pointed out, we have people telling us that wealth is our right, and we should claim it. Nowhere does it say this in the Bible, quite the contrary. Jesus mentioned the poor will always be with us because we'll always have that opportunity to give sacrificially. His statement is not a reason to ignore the plight of millions. Currently, 40% of the world's population lives on less than $2 a day. The answer is not, "Jesus said the poor will always be with us, so he's right." Instead, we can thank him for the opportunity to demonstrate his love by making a difference. For some, that might be the answer. For sure, the early Christians did this. Also, the entire OT passage about the Year of Jubilee points out that God owns everything and his people are but temporary stewards. It's up to us to determine how best to answer God's call. Each responds in a different way based on culture, times, and circumstance. I agree that we should not invent new laws. The Pharisees had a field day with that. Still, we are called to be Christ-like and to submit to the Bible's teaching - not pick and choose which bits we like. "We do" might be more appropriate because you don't know my circumstances any more than I know yours. In comparison to the world's most poor, however, we are stinking rich. This is why I find it an abomination that some so-called evangelists live in mansions, fly private jets, and own many fancy cars - because they are abusing the trust put on them. What message are they conveying about the love of God? What did it mean when Paul wrote the words? The money from the churches in Corinth and elsewhere were used to house, feed, and look after those in need in Jerusalem. I'm sure they gave until their circumstances were equal to those of believers in Jerusalem. In that sense, yes, we are to bring the situation of believers around the world up to ours. But don't forget the other part of the verses I quoted: "And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have. Of course, I don’t mean your giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves." That's the principle.
Bring it on! I do see how this argument can be (and is) used as a cop out. I just took you to mean that we all had an outright obligation to poverty. It is obvious that the Lord has convicted you about this in a big way. I am happy that you are so passionate about this leading. I am still confused about the equality issue, as that's not a doctrine I particularly agree with (nor have I ever heard it before this thread). However, you are obligated to follow the Lord's leading for you, and I pray that you are doing that. That having been said, please be understanding that not all believers are called the way you are. Ok, that actually makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explaination.
Absolutely, which is why Jesus said the poor will always be with us. But it also means that we'll always have the opportunity to demonstrate our love for him by giving to believers in need. I realize this is implying something controversial, namely that God allows millions to be born into abject poverty to demonstrate the power of his love. It's for the sake of his glory, and our part (having been given the resources to help the poor) is simply to be obedient.
Yes, I do get on my high horse sometimes - sorry. I know it rubs a few people up the wrong way, and I apologize for that. We're each a product of our experience, and I've traveled way too much in the Third World - which undoubtedly colors my opinions. It also means that some Bible verses convict me more than most. Again, sorry for coming across as so arrogant at times.
I'll prepare myself for the onslaught of tomatoes because I'm about to hijack this thread. :wink: I think sometimes we get in the mindset that if there is a need we can just throw money at it and presto! it will be fixed. While there are plenty of examples in scripture of financial gifts, there are also examples of other types of giving. The Bible says "give as needed". The need is not always money. Sometimes it's education to overcome ignorance. Sometimes it's affirmation or encouragement to overcome discouragement and depression. It may be simply giving our time and talent to assist someone else. Just because someone has financial means doesn't keep them from having needs. And scripture doesn't doesn't discriminate between needs. Marty
Good points, Marty! And to me, that "as needed" Steve mentioned doesn't mean you just give undiscriminately. Paul also says that those who don't work, don't eat. I will give willingly to those that are in need, but not to those who feel they have a RIGHT to my hard-earned dollars. There's a difference between a person who cannot work for some reason, and one too lazy to go out looking for a job. Or a person who has worked hard, been laid off and is going through hard times, and the person who is too proud to take an entry-level job.
In the case of someone who won't work, the need isn't hunger. They need a swift kick in the backside. And that part's of my point. We often think that what immediately comes in view must automatically be the need. Sometimes the need is deeper. In a situation like a third world country, we can send food aid for years and years. When the aid is withdrawn, are they better off then when we started? After the first response of emergency aid very often the need changes to education. How often do we look at brothers and sisters with financial means in the body and think, "I can't give them anything, they have it all because they have money." You would be surprised at how many "wealthy" people want an honest friendship. A friend who isn't out to gouge them for money, who will speak honestly and straightforwardly. We all have needs. This is something the prosperity gospel misses. We can all give to each other as is needed. There is not reason to "shun" anyone or assume they are "more blessed" because of what we think might be in their bank account. Marty Ducking and covering for incoming tomatoes!! AUGH!
In general, the Bible's prescription for giving appears to be from local church members to local church leaders to church leaders in a needy area to the believers in that needy area. Without meaning to in any way undermine that approach, I would recommend a book called 'Give a little - how your small donations can transform our world', by Wendy Smith. It would seem very appropriate to families seeking to teach their children to give to the needy. Here are some of the entries: - $10 provides an insecticide-treated bed net to a family in need. (Given how malaria is one of the big three killers in Africa, this really helps with children's health.) - $35 buys a water pump to irrigate 3/4 of an acre. - $120 buys a goat for one family, including assistance and training. I particularly like this one because those receiving livestock (through heifer.com) are encouraged to denote the firstborn to another family - and so the gift goes on. - $0.28 buys a clean delivery kit for pregnant mothers, including soap, plastic sheet, string (for tying the cord), clean razor blade (for cutting the cord). - $15 buys a ceramic filter unit to produce drinkable water from dirty river water. - $34 buys a bicycle, which can transform family life by allowing family members to work, attend school, or simply collect water. There are also a number of microloan projects that extend finance, often as little as $5 or $10, to adults in needy countries so they can start their own business. Experience shows that the pay-back on these loans is virtually 100% among women, which is why most programs focus on women and not men. Projects like this have revolutionized some parts of the world. And I'm sure many of us are aware of sponsorship programs for children overseas. I've had the privilege of twice visiting a sponsored child, and I can vouch for the genuineness of these programs. One time, I showed up at a project near Bangalore, India with about one hour's notice, so I saw things the way they really are. The project workers are real heroes, dedicating their lives to the betterment of local communities. Anyway, I've probably written too much already in this thread. PS - If anyone would like to borrow my copy of this book, just send me a PM.
