I think a bit differently b/c I am not necessarily opposed to public or private school. Has he learned in the last 3 years? Is he progressing? Is he hindering your other children's progress with his constant disruptions? If you feel that he isn't learning, won't learn, and can't be made to learn at home; then you should take him to the school an enroll him. Don't threaten it if you won't follow through. Give him a 3 strikes your out policy. Tell him if he gets 3 strikes he goes back to public school. Let him know what your expectations are for strikes-if he doesn't work, if he yells, if he antagonizes his siblings...then follow through. If the only way for him to understand that he isn't in charge of his education and that you his parents are is to put him in public school, then I say that is the lesser of 2 evils. Him yelling at you and not doing work could not be what you envisioned when you started home schooling.
I don't think anyone would stand to be around another who has rages like you describe. I know I have had my share of similar behaviour with my son who is seven and like you it started from early on. However they have lessened over the past two years..well since he started homeschooling. I think it's because I spend a crazy amount of time focusing on character and behavior . When he does something inappropriate it never slides. We will talk it out. I am trying to relax more on that though as I think it may end up driving him nuts if everything is analyzed. lol.
I want to respond more right now I`m on my DSi so it,s not easy...but give me a bit. One thing I need to say is you will get advice from everyone but unless you have lved a day with an ODD child you have no clue.
CrazyMama says it's a ODD issue, so (without looking it up...sorry) I would say if she's adament about it then ok. Seems like taking him to Public School will only make it worse, since there are so many other children in school that act that way. He will find the worst inflouance he can and start to follow them and then it will, seemingly, sky rocket.
Ok.. now I'm on the computer and can actually type..lol A diagnosis... well I don't like labels, but we did take Garrett to be diagnosed. We went to a big "box" hospital, where your info is put in a computer and "it" comes up with the diagnosis... they are a teaching hospital, supposedly state of the art, and well they suck...lol. They wouldn't give us any kind of a diagnosis because we didn't have an outside teacher (public school) to give them an evaluation paper... they treated us like we were there to get drugs for our kid (far from it.. I was at the end of my rope, and wanted ideas not drugs, not SSI, nothing but HELP). They made us go to parenting classes that even with insurance cost us a fortune and got us no where. I started reading and learning on my own and things have gotten better slowly on our own. Really it's up to you if you want the diagnosis.. but remember it's something that can stick with them forever, and you may or may not want that (will it answer questions for a judge when he gets in serious trouble some day? maybe, but will it keep him from getting a certain job in the military when he straightens himself out.. possibly), so I think you need to think about that for yourself... also, a judge won't be any easier on someone just because they have a diagnosis of being something like ODD (they aren't crazy afterall ) Have I used Total Transformation.... ummm not really, I have listened to a few of the CDs but have not specifically implemented them, but they do have some wonderful ideas on them. I have read several books... them most helpful was the Defiant Child one.. well let me grab it so I can give you the author.... Ok.. the author is Dr. Douglas A Riley. There is another but it wasn't as helpful, Back in Control by Gregory Bodenhamer. The one by Riley was much more "strict" and didn't talk to the parent like the parent was dumb or had failed. What are your homeschooling laws like? Can you take a while to simply focus on his behavior and let his school work stuff kind of just in the background?
I didn't read everything just scanned but I totally agree with whoever said to paint his backside red. I would wear that rear end out if my child EVER spoke to me that way! It seems to me like the punishment is severly laking. I also disagree with the wait till your dad gets home mantra. If I told my kids that they'd be happy not to have to deal with me! Seems to me like if he gets away with one little thing then each time it gets worse and worse. I simply would be on him like stink on you know what and each and everytime he steps outta line he gets consequenses.
PS.. spanking kids like these and conventional punishments get you no where... the kid in turn thinks it's his job to get even with you... and it really makes things worse.
I will admit that I am not an expert, nor do I have any experience with ODD (to my knowledge), however I have worked in many childcare settings, with many types of children and I have found that some children do not respond well to negative punishment but rather do better with positive reinforcement. I have had children with which it was hard to find anything to compliment on, but I would find something even if it was only "thank you for putting up your coat" or "I appreciate that you finished your lunch today" and I found the more I complimented, the better the child behaved, we still had rough patches and I can remember days where I cried right along with the child because of one behavior or another, but I can also remember taking the child on a field trip and having a great time and when mom picked him up all she asked me was "how bad was it?" and I beamed at being able to tell her how well behaved he was. So without knowing what the issues are, I would really suggest trying some positive reinforcement, it may help you as well because it will force you to focus on your child's good side!
From reading your posts it sounds to me like an emotional issue. It really does. I mean, he should not be so hostile (screaming, antagonizing, etc) and lashing out just over schoolwork or missing his friends. I mean, sure a kid might complain and slack off over not wanting to do their work, but screaming fits? Stealing, taking off, hiding things from you-this is an emotionally disturbed young man. He needs to be evaluated by your pedi. If your pedi won't take you seriously, get another opinion. Sometimes the pedi will say a kid's personality disorders need to be substantiated by a teacher. Mine did. I suspected my dd had ADD when she was younger and the pedi was like, 'Put her in school and let the teacher tell me'. (Turned out she didn't have it, but still. I am her teacher and I'm telling you she's got a problem!) Being that he's such an angry young man, I would worry about the safety of the other kids in the family.
I do think positive reinforcement may help. I know my son who is seven will throw really awful temper fits if the mood hits him. And I have found that the more I keep calm with him the more it diffuses his temper. Not an easy thing when he is wound up by any means. That being said whatever you decide you need to do. I know how discouraging it is to see them doing things that are bad for them. And I will be thinking of and praying for your family. God Bless.
First of all, I agree there's some serious emotional stuff going on. My kids' piano teacher had an excellent book dealing with children like this; I'll try to get the title of it. But it was VERY good. Second, I never said to "wait 'til Dad gets home". I don't believe in that. But I've been told that often with boys, it's a "man-thing". Northernmomma was able to express it well: "First I think what Jackie is saying is true. Not that it's a wait till you Dad comes home thing. But more of a man talking to a younger man that will influence him(hopefully) into becoming a better man. To teach him to realize that men do not behave towards their mothers or other women in this fashion. Sometimes men need to hear it from someone other then their mother." It's also an issue of "This is MY WIFE, and you don't treat MY WIFE like that." I know it sounds strange, but sometimes that's how guys work. Phillip has been giving me a bit of grief lately, though nothing like this. Yes, I've been dealing with it. Yes, he's gotten in trouble with me. But the last time, I also suggested that maybe he needed to stay home from Youth Group that night to discuss the situation with his father.... And they DID have a conversation. Carl made it very clear to him that he would NOT tolerate that kind of behavior/anger directed at me. And Phillip was getting upset earlier today, but was trying so hard to control himself. I could see that, so I did what I could to help calm the situation down.
Positive reinforcement can get tricky.. because these kids think that the world owes them everything and they are better than everyone and everything... when you give them a bit of praise for something they expect even more.. and they already think they are perfect. It's kind of hard to explain... but yeah these kids who fit the ODD mold are definately a "different breed" and a whole ballgame of their own for sure.
I agree. Although obviosly he has not been diagnosed and I am still deciding whether or not to have it done, I have dived into the ODD world and read everything online I can find. I am headed out later to buy the book you suggested Sommer. Positive reinforcment does nothing for him. In fact when I use it, he ends up (like Sommer said) wanting more, and when he doesn't get more he rebels, acts up etc. It ends up backfiring and he gets worse. Also, like Sommer said, spanking doesn't do anything for him. Nothing really does. I have yet to find something that does...but when I do...I will definately use it. I greatly appreciate everyones advice. You guys have no idea how much insight you have given me. I also love that I can come here and tell you all what problems I am having and no one judges me, they just offer support and advice. I always say 2 heads are better than 1, and in this case....lots of heads. You are all wonderful. FWIW...I think you are all answers to my prayers. :angel:
It was getting this way with Elijah, about that time, there was an article in the newspaper about a doctor named, Dr. Ankenman that had done research on children with problems such as these that have been listed. He had found out that these children had a problem with the Alpha/Beta in their brain. He prescribe a VERY low dose of a blood pressure medicine and a VERY low dose of heart medicine. The doctor told us that he is not knowing that he is saying the things that he is saying. I would say to Elijah that he said it, he would say, no I didn't. Elijah would get so frustrated at me that things would get out of hand. The doctor said that he had a hard time making good decisions. I don't know if there are any other doctors that would prescribe this, but I think it has made a difference. I also decided to change our curriculum to using PACES and homeschooling with another family. There are 4 children and 2 adults. We are using the same curriculum - the older children sit at one table, the younger 2 sit at another table. Her oldest is similar to mine. We do have rules and we try to run it more like a school. It has helped tremendously. Not sure if it is the medicine or the schooling change, but it has worked.
lots and lots of hugs. If you need to talk PM me. Diagnosis or not I'm pretty sure if you start learning about ODD and implementing the "treatments" you will slowly see results. Things are slowly getting better with Garrett... we never went too extreme with what we have used, had we been more "harsh" I'm sure we would be much further... but doing some of the things simply doesn't fit our lifestyle and would be unfair to the other children.
Well, We are going through this same thing. I finally had enough of coddling my son and trying to make HIM happy. I did all I could to make it pleasant and fun for him and all he did was fight me and mentally exhaused me. He flat out told me that he didn't care about learning so he wasn't going to. I told hubby I needed help and he FINALLY(after 4 years) stepped in. He punishes him when he has an attitude right along with me. I make him do extra chores for his punishment, hubby is more stern. But he gets it from us BOTH. I threatened him with public school and he flat told me he wouldn't do the work there either. And he probably wouldn't, so we're going to stick this out. This way at least we know what he is supposed to be learning and can push him. If he were in public school, we wouldn't know what was going on in order to make him do the work. I guess we could but this would be easier in the long run for us I think.
It does sound like ODD to me too. My only experience is a couple kids I taught a few years ago in a church preschool class. I would really investigate that further (((HUGS))).
I agree that this is more than a discipline issue. I've seen kids like this too, and I would really hope that you can get some outside support for him and for you and family. You know he's got to be miserable on the inside. You'll be in my prayers.
CrazyMama, Minthia...I know both of you are going to get upset by what I'm going to say. Just don't think it's a personal attack on you, k? I have always thought (so this isn't a recent development) that certain "dissabilities" or "disorders" were meant to be "excuses" for a child's behavior in some cases. Take ADD for example. I just don't think it's a legitimate diagnosis, or a legitimate disorder. Sometimes I think kids are labeled that way so parents can make an excuse for their child's actions in public: "Oh, sorry my child stole X from your store. He has ADD." I read up on ODD (rather, I went to the official website and looked it up) and it just seems like a kid who doesn't get discipline, or rather a parent who is inconsistent with discipline and is tired/frustrated/wanting there to be another reason why their child has a behavior issue. My three year old went through a time of this a month ago. Very defiant, mouthy, threw his toys at me or brother, inexplicably would hit his brother, would tell me "NO" no matter what I asked him, and would scream if he didn't get his way. I stayed firm with my discipline, but fair. I would speak firmly when appropriate, time out when appropriate, and then spank when appropriate. Everything had proper reprocussions, and you always followed the same steps. Now, all three year olds go through a time like this (as the website said: "Oppositional behavior is often a normal part of development for two to three year olds"), but I think it's those that know what they can get away with that take the control to a new level. If you're really worried about it then send him to a Psychiatrist. I read your post, Minthia, to my husband and he said, "Send him to Military School." DH works in a prison, and if there is one or two places where one will learn authority, and responsibility it's in an atmosphere like that. I would have to agree. If my kid were to act that way, I would have problems doing that. I would agree with whoever said that some strip their kids' rooms of only a blanket, pillow, and bed. I would agree, but I think some parents/caregivers lack the discipline themselves to carry out something as extreme and hardcore like that.
Sorry to be late in responding: I'm on a business trip with little time available to access the Internet. I would like to comment on several things, though. 1) He's a boy. We have four of them. They behave very differently from the girls (who, in general, have been little angels). One of our boys is placid and internalizes most things. On the other extreme, two of them share some of the elements you describe. It's part of growing up as a boy - sorry! Our oldest, now 25, will smile and say, "Dad, I was a little devil as a child, wasn't I?" In other words, he knew at the time what he was going, but he's now well and truly grown out of it. Why do I say this? Because I find too many parents in a rush to diagnose their child with something when the pressure is on - and doctors are sometimes only too willing to oblige. Maybe time will tell that there is a medical issue, but I wouldn't be too quick to jump to that conclusion. 2) The issue with our oldest is that he's an outdoor child - always has been and always will be. Whenever he's outside - walking, running, playing soccer, doing karate (which was a great outlet at the time), playing homeschool baseball, he was all smiles. Stuck in the house doing school work? Miserable! Is there any way you can involve your son in more outdoor activities and sports? Let him run off his energy. Have your dh take him on hikes. What about Boy Scouts? 3) I agree that the dad must take charge. Boys learn differently from girls, and they need a male role model in their lives. A boy will respect what his dad says more than what his mom says - but it needs time. A dad can't have a discipline or warning session and then not follow up. It takes time and effort and attention. 4) Even though they like to appear as tough guys, boys need love too. My own mother criticised me heavily once when she came to visit. Richard was being a little terror. When I caught him, I just sat down and held him for ten minutes, telling him that I love him. My mother saw that as rewarding bad behavior with love, and maybe she was right, but this was my chosen approach. Yes, boys need to know that discipline will be used consistently, but they also need to know they are loved. Sometimes outrageous behavior can be a plea for love. 5) Take it a day at a time. He's going through a phase right now, and it won't be easy. The problem is not solved by applying stricter and stricter discipline. It takes a real investment in time and consistently addressing issues as they arise. It's too much for you to have to do alone, so dad must go out of his way to help every moment that he can. 6) I do agree with the idea of 'date time' with each child. Personally, I took time to get away for two or three days alone with each child. They got to choose where to do. With our oldest son, he chose Washington DC. We had an amazing pillow fight in the hotel room, with feathers flying everywhere. I got to know him as a real person perhaps for the first time (and that's true for the other children too). If at all possible, could your husband arrange a trip away with your oldest son for a few days? As they get closer, dh can impress on ds the importance of respecting you and listening to you. It made a real difference in our case. 7) The one thing that concerns me the most is your son escaping outside by a busy road. That's something I would address with urgency. He needs to understand the danger. 8) Oh, and one other thing: If things don't improve, make it clear that you will involve your church pastor. When we did this, our oldest took it very seriously. It's one thing to cause trouble for your parents in the privacy of your home. When other and respected adults learn how much trouble you are causing, the guilt factor appears to kick in. Hope this helps.
