I take no offense to what you said. I am one that has always thought the same as you. Diagnosis' are just an "excuse" is what I always said. That may be true and I still believe that children are over diagnosed. HOWEVER, I do think some children are wired different. If you read over the ODD website then you must have come across the part about what causes it. One of the things they believe causes it is genetics. IF that is the case, then there really is something to be said about a very few children who actually have ODD. I don't know whether or not my ds has ODD, I am just going to use some of the discipline tactics and follow through with him that are suggested and see if that helps. Oh I know they are different from girls...my girls are, well, mostly made of sugar and spice and everything nice...except when they bring out their pitch forks.:twisted: My ds is currently in cub scouts and I make sure he gets outside as often as possible. It rains a lot here and even in the rain he loves to be outside. We are currently looking in to Tae-Kwan-Do for him since that is an interest he has. My dh does discipline him...I can tell though that he does listen to my dh better than listening to me. You are a great dad as your approach to your sons misbehavior shows. I need to remember this one more often. Thank you for the reminder. I have talked to my dh about this...not just date nights for a few hours, but real "dates" for a few days at a time. He would love to do that and we are going to see what we can do about him taking our ds within the next monthish for a date weekend. I always like to hear a fathers perspective, especially one who has grown boys. It makes me realize that this too shall pass.
I too always believed that things such as ADD and ADHD was an excuse and not real (I had never heard of ODD until I took Garrett to the neuropyschologist and SHE said if we had outside opinion from a teacher that would be the direction gone).... and then I lived the nightmare we have lived. If it were a matter of us being bad parents and not following through ALL OF OUR KIDS would be monsters.. but they aren't. My other kids are all very well behaved and happy people to be around... Garrett has never been a pleasant person to be around (well he has his moments, but they are few and far between). Children with ODD aren't going through a "period of oppositional behavior", these are kids going through YEARS of oppositional behavior. They really are wired differently.
What I didn't mention are the many times when my patience pretty much ran out - and I just didn't want to have to deal with him. There were the intense battles of will that, underneath it all, I just didn't want to bother with. The hardest thing in the world is to be consistent, to follow up every time, to spend time with a child whom you believe doesn't 'deserve' it. Sometimes we get it right. Just as often, we don't. Looking back, though, some events do stick in your memory, and it's those that I mentioned earlier.
So totally wonderful Steve that you took the time to address this. I too love hearing from a man who has grown boys. My poor DH has the worst memory and can't remember what he or his brothers were like. Sigh so I go on what I recall of my own brother. And at times I forget that boys are a different kettle of fish. I think it's easy for people who haven't lived the path of a disability to say it's not really real. I think if as you say Crazymomma your son has never been pleasant to be around my heart cries with you. That is an awful situation to find yourself in especially with your eldest. I have a boy- we should start a new thread on I have a boy lol- I am the mother of a boy who baffles me with his moods and thoughts. I also understand that boys are wired differently. Males brains are wired to think linear thoughts and women are as men say confusing we think up, down, sideways and when we don't really need to we also explore inside out. Lol. Its really hard to relate to man coming of age as they have issues we never had nor never will. And as Steve said lets remember that no matter what else they still need to know they are loved. SO many men in the world have miserable self esteem issues that wouldn't be their if there upbringing had loved them unconditionally. It's an issue we oft overlook as women thinking men are naturally strong and tough. But inside we are all people with the same need for apprection and respect and so on. Boy I don't really know where I am going with this. Other then hugs all around. And let's hope we all come out the other side of this child rearing face to face with happy adult children!
I know he doesn't address issues like ODD, but you might want to read Dr. Dobson's Bringing Up Boys. As the mother of four boys, I call it my second bible. lol
I think it is probably a twofold problem. The first thing is discipline. The key word is consistency. If you always follow through with the consequences, he WILL learn that he is not getting his way. But, you have to ALWAYS follow through. If he can break you down by whining or if you let up on the length of the punishment because you are tired of dealing with it--it WON'T work. I did this better when my son was young. I would tell him, "If you whine we are leaving." I told him this once when he wanted to look at toys at a store. He whined--we left. It NEVER happened again. Of course, always remember to do this with love underneath. The second thing may be a problem with not being ready or confident in his learning. I wouldn't say back off of everything, but lighten it up while you work on the discipline and gradually build it back up.
Yes, it is difficult for people who haven't lived or been around people with a dissability to claim such things aren't real. If such a thing as ADD/ADHD/ODD were to be real (which no doubt it is to a very small portion), I think kids are WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY over-diagnosed with such things. I think most parents get their child "diagnosed" with these things because they have slacked as a parent in the discipline department and refuse to believe it's their fault. Now, remember I said SOME people do this. Not all. As for not being around somebody with a disability, I've seen my fair share. My brother has autism and epilepsy, my own son has a speech/sensory/ and physical dissability, and I worked alongside a Special Education Teacher for a few years (as well as volunteering at special events) and I can tell you...for some of these kids...it's a DEFINATE discipline issue. I agree, CabsMom, all discipline needs to be done with love. They need to know that even though they are being punished, it is for their own good and you do this because you love them.
I agree that there is an over-diagnosis, but disagree that it is because parents have slacked. Maybe with some, but definitely not all. Some kids are wired differently. You can tell a child with ADD to do something 10 times and the reason they aren't doing it isn't because they are being disobedient. Their mind is going 1000 different directions at once and the instructions can get lost along the way. I have one child that could probably be diagnosed with ADD, but I'm not going there because I see it as a strength. He has energy I wish I had and has the ability to see life with exuberance and beauty. At the same time I have to teach him strategies for coping in our left-brain loving society. When I was a speech therapist I used to tell parents blaming themselves that it was not their fault. Some children will have language problems no matter what the environment is like. Sure there are cases where neglect leads to problems, but overall it is a brain wiring issue. All children are different with their own strengths and weaknesses. While I am not personally familiar with ODD, I'm sure these kids have brain wiring differences too. It doesn't mean you excuse behavior, but you will have to approach it differently. It was the same when I was working with children with language issues. Sure, they had language problems but the problems had to be approached differently than the child who picks up language easily.
Yes, some kids are wired differently. But, because of the over-diagnosis, people just tend to roll their eyes to all cases. That's especially true with ADD/ADHD. So many parents are looking for an excuse for bad parenting that those that truely are ADD/ADHD get a bad rap. It's too bad. And I would assume it's similar for ODD.
That's very true Jackie! Although havng seen a child who truly does have add/adhd I can now see the difference! I used to believe that add/adhd was an 'excuse', but like I said once I met a child who truly had it I changed my tune really quickly. It's just seems like doctors and parents both are looking for the easy way out, and many times PS teachers don't help because they pressure the parent to get the child medicated for the 'good of the class'. - again not all PS teacher, but there are some that are like that.
Also, keep in mind that since ADD/ADHD are considered disabilities, schools get additional funding for students who are diagnosed. Not that all schools go looking for money under rocks, but a lot do. So that's another reason parents are "encouraged" to have their child diagnosed.
I didn't know that Amie! That certainly explains why the teachers around here push it so much, our schools NEED the money so bad they'll use the kids to get it...one more reason to homeschool!
Faythe was the kid who easily would have been labeled. She's the one that, if she had been in a "regular" classroom, would work very hard for five minutes, then listen in on the reading group, then would go sharpen her pencil, work another five minutes, stare out the window at the birds for 15, get a drink of water, break the pencil lead and would need to sharpen it again.... And at the end of the hour, MAYBE she would have the first row of math problems done. So how would the teacher respond? By keeping her in for recess, of course! I believe she's borderline ADD/ADHD, but she comes by it honestly. Both my brother and Carl's were diagnosed with it, and that was 40 years ago before EVERYONE had it! My anti-homeschooling mil, btw, told me one day that she thought it was a "good thing" that I kept Faythe at home, because she "really needs" the one-on-one (!!!).
You are describing my oldest child perfectly Jackie! Easily distracted, can't sit still, daydreammer, but he is a great kid and I've found that if I give him something to fidgit with he learns much better! I never thought before of how he'd be treated in a regular classroom, but I guess he probably would be one of those kids the teacher wants medicated. I'm not a push over parent though, and would have refused!
I'd have been fighting it, too. I saw what medication did to my brother. Just out of curiousity, would a Mountain Dew excite your child more, or calm him down? My one friend has two boys that HAD to have a Dew every day in high school, because it would calm them down to where they could concentrate better in the afternoon. The caffeine has the OPPOSITE effect on a truely ADD/ADHD child.
We don't do much soda here in the house, but when he does have it I don't notice an effect on him one way or the other. Sugar is the same thing with him, though he doesn't like much sweets - says they upset his tummy.
Agreed. I could have written this about my kids. It is NOT a discipline issue, but a wiring issue that needs to be addressed in a way that will help my ds and bring peace back to our home.
I'm going to say this and hope that it doesn't stir up a hornet's nest. If you get your child evaluated, they will find something. It is inevitable. We have been down that path with one pedi and they sent our ds for eval after eval and of course he needed this or that or what not. I finally got fed up and had my husband go with me to an eval. It did not go well. All of the "quirks" that were signs of this or that could also just simply be he doesn't like showers he likes to play with toys in his bath or no he doesn't like mud on his hands, do you? The next week we changed pedi's and didn't forward any records. We didn't have the ds that was sent for evals seen right away by new pedi. Instead she met my son at his younger brother's well check-ups and immunizations his first year. Younger ds was 2 months when we changed dr.'s so the new dr. saw other ds often that year. At the end of the year, ds (the one that was being sent for every eval under the sun) was seen for his well check up by the new dr. I said nothing and led her in no way. When the visit was over and she gave him the all clear, I finally told her the reason we changed pedi's and why we didn't transfer records. She was shocked. She told me we had nothing to worry about and did the right thing changing dr.'s. I had listened to a pedi and other people for years who just knew this or that was our problem based on my exasperation or my frustration with ds's behavior. It led to a year of insanity until dh finally said stop. There is no telling how my son would be now if we would have continued the evals and had a "diagnosis". I would have changed my expectations for him considerably for no reason. It has been 4 years since then this year. I am so thankful that I quit googling his "symptoms" and "behaviors" and changed doctors. Ask his pediatrician for her input and whether he/she thinks your son needs any type of eval. Then be sure to get a 2nd opinion that is unbiased from the first and go from there.
This is all so true. Thank you for sharing. And I agree with not googling "symptoms" and "behaviors," it can cause much concern and heartache.
I know the disruptive symptoms, such as inattention, arguing with adults, hyperactivity, impulsivity and anger are all things that are shown with ADHD. I don't want to give you a diagnosis but, our family deals with this. There are times that my ds cries and says I don't understand why I act like that, I don't want to. That's when we decided to talk to someone and help him. I always thought it was just a restless child. But, in all reality they are restless in their minds. The endorfins in their brain close a nano second faster than everyone else’s. That is why they behave that way. They really can't help it. Just like we can't help it when we have the flu. It is a medical problem and so many people don't look at it like that. We have pulled out all stops to get my ds the help that he needs. He is only 10 the road has been miserable! But, now that we have found what is working for him and a counselor that REALLY helps him and doesn't aggravate him. It has been fantastic. Now, he can see the difference. I hope sharing some of our journey will help you realize you aren't alone in your journey. Know it's not you and your son probably deep down doesn't know why he acts that way. It may be one of the reason he is "lazy" because he doesn't feel good about himself.
