We're giving the government a reason to regulate homeschooling

welllll
to me,

This is staggeringly convincing proof that humans share a common chromosomal characteristic with chimpanzees. Not that humans started out as chimpanzees.

If *I* were on the jury, there would be no conviction in this case!

 

Aha. But I didn't write that we started out as chimpanzees. We share a common ancestor with them, which is different.

Really, though, does anyone doubt a conviction based on DNA evidence? We know that the odds against being wrong are very slim. It's just the same here.

 

Ah, the Great Bird of the Galaxy!

 

and to me it is staggeringly convincing proof that the same creator created us all and when he designs a system it works. Our "common ancestor" is GOD.

 

another thought. If God is outside of time. (time being a created thing) Then not only could he have created the whole of the universe and beyond in an "instant" but he also could have brought into being every moment of eternity to BE in that moment of creation. So while we percieve time, God does not...the world is being created, is created and all believers are living in eternity with Him...RIGHT NOW. We cannot understand the majesty and complexity of God...we are only getting a small handle on time. I think we may find that there were some difficulties in comprehension in what God meant...I don't think it was hidden or decietful but we are all working toward wisdom and understanding...LIKE cremation of the body would somehow affect God's ability to raise the dead, or the Earth must be the center of the Universe. (heck our Universe isn't even the center of the Universes.) We are trying to Explain God by limiting Him. We want him to be like us, rather than trying to understand how we are like Him.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is at hand. you know, when I have a hammer at hand, what I mean is it is right here and I can use it at anytime. What if he meant that...it is right here right now? Because everything is now to God. What is a 24 hour day? What is and evening? What is a million years? What is a thousand years? How was Jesus in paradise with the thief TODAY while he was in Hell overcoming death for 3 days.
So I don't think that teaching science is against God unless you can't mention Him. (and in some classes you better not) I don't think we are going to learn anything in science that diminishes God. God can take our best arguements.
Just because I don't understand...well, maybe right now, in Eternity with God I DO understand.

 

There is that "we" again. On the other hand, that does explain some things....:wink:

It does not PROVE we have a common ancestor. To me, evidence the proves men have the genetic building blocks all designed by the same Creator, in which small variations create different species. It also proves that science wants to prove man is a chance mutation of genes without need of a Creator and at this point in time, what is known about genetics seems to support that theory--ten years from now, geneticists could all be laughing at their own predecessors' naivety.

What is being ignored in this discussion is that we are the evidence there is a God. Should science break mankind down to just a species produced by a genetic fluke, then there is more evidence that there is no God. I am sure that if all a science has to do is fuse two genes together to make the offspring of an ape into a human, they would do that just to prove their case. Scary thought, but....I believe that if science ever gets to that point, what it will get shall not be a human being. Genetics may create the vessel, but not the spirit.

At what point do we believe that God made us to be different than all the other animals in His creation? It would be like trying to determine the point of life in a developing fetus. Because we don't know, we choose our morality on such issues, but the more we tear away between man from God, the less morals mankind as a whole seems to have.

It is a choice to believe in creationism, despite the evidence against it, just as it is a choice to believe in evolution, despite the evidence against it. You see, although you have tried to draw us into a point-by-point argument, no one seems to be that interested in arguing the points of evolution vs. creationism, and it is not because some are not knowledgeable on the subject; before I had my daughter I rubbed elbows with some pretty amazing medical researchers from various parts of the world.

No one is really trying to convince you that you are wrong or anything else in particular. It seems to me that most here respect your right to believe as you do. However, it seems that you are particularly agitated with those of us here who do not believe as you do. You are trying so hard to convince everyone...so much effort in futility. In the end, it really will not matter.

Hebrews 1:10-12
And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

 

That same article was on yahoo and it didn't seem to be attacking home schoolers that don't teach evolution, but it had a home school mom quoting about how hard it is to find home school material that does cover evolution in anything other than it is wrong.
I agree it is hard. My child wants to be a veterinarian. She needs to be strong in science. I am having a hard time. I want something with teacher's guides to help me teach it to her, but you can't really purchase those for public school textbooks as a home schooler. Pearson will sell teacher material if you fill out a form. I plan to do this next year.
We are doing Abeka this year and I have already purchased next year. I love some of their material and it is very thorough, but there are also sections which are just opinion not science. My child was very excited when her 5th grade books came. She started flipping through it excitedly until she got to a section which questioned whether dinosaurs still exist. It was a very odd section.
We plan to skip those few pages. Next year I don't know if I will purchase Abeka. I am worried about having to really monitor what could be hidden between the lines.
It is very hard to find books that aren't young earth also. There is also a strange aversion to the words a million years ago. Before we started home schooling this year, I had never heard of young earth.
I believe all the theories should be taught and explored as theories. Yet that is hard to do when all the material is the same.
I do think this could lead to more regulation.

 

You're quite right on this. There was most certainly a time when God breathed his own breath into a pair of humans. They were now creatures made in the image of God. As a result, we can love, share ideas, imagine, hold opinions, appreciate art and music, and so on. The issue here is whether a human couple were formed physically out of nothing at that time or whether God blessed an existing human animal with his own breath.

There are some fascinating hints about this in certain bible passages. They imply that we, as children of God, inhabit physical bodies that were prepared in advance. Only later was our 'spirit' added to it. For example:

Job 10v11: Clothe me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. The verse implies we exist as a spirit before we enter the womb.

Job 10v12: You gave me life and in your providence watched over my spirit. God created me first as a spirit.

Psalm 139v13: You created my inmost being. Quite distinct from my animal body.

Psalm 139v15: My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Psalm 139v16: You eyes saw my unformed body. When you compare this statement with the verses that claim that God formed us in the womb, there's only one conclusion we can draw: there is a time when the fetus is 'unformed'. The act of forming is God clothing our spirit with the skin and flesh of the fetus.

Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. We were created as a spirit and God knew us. Only later were we formed in the womb. Our physical body was prepared separately as a place for our spirit to dwell. During our time on earth, we're first "knitted together with bones and sinews", inseparable. When we die, the spirit is once again free until our Lord forms a new body in which we will dwell on the New Earth.

Anyway, I'm going down a bunny trail.

And I am grateful for the respect that is extended. I get agitated because rejecting evolution as science is like rejecting calculus as math. I understand just how sincere everyone is on this, but on this one issue - the only issue I can think of in the domain of education - we are shutting our eyes. I read in several places that evolution is just a theory. Gravity is just a theory too, but it explains the facts and can make successful predictions. I also hear it said that there's no evidence of evolution, and that's downright wrong. There are hundreds of thousands of peer reviewed papers, many written by Christians, explaining the evidence. We just choose to ignore them.

By driving a wedge between us and "the world" on this issue, we are inviting a backlash. There are times and places to dig in our heels, but this one is a losing cause: The science is proved, and we are refusing to accept it. Many statements published in the name of the 'science' of creationism have been proved wrong so many times, yet it's as if we are stone deaf. This is why I am passionate about it. Plus, I'm a trained scientist, so issues like this mean a lot.

Anyway, you've been very patient as I make the case here, and I don't want to overdo it. Thanks everyone for the gracious tone of your responses.

 

The most American/capitalistic thing to do is to publish an evolution based science curriculum made for homeschoolers, since the market seems to be wide open for it.

 

It's a deal - if you can convince homeschool expos to change their rules so exhibitors don't have to sign a form saying they'll only sell creationist/young earth books. If you can do that, how'd you like to be a business partner?

 

Cute!

First, I don't do partnerships (except with my husband).
Second, I am not against expos having their own rules that exclude vendors or products.
Third, I have to believe in the product, which I wouldn't.

However, I think you are overrating expos; I know very few homeschooling parents that go to them. I am pretty good at marketing, actually, and my thoughts are that since it would be a specialty item with practically no competition, an evolution based curriculum could be marketed quite effectively online and word of mouth. So, my thoughts are that if you feel so strongly about this, then you should not be letting expo exclusions dissuade you.

 

I've never been to an expo. We have one here every year, but I figure it would just be so overwhelming, I wouldn't be able to decide anything anyway, and besides that I'm too poor to go to one lol

 

You're quite right on this. There was most certainly a time when God breathed his own breath into a pair of humans. They were now creatures made in the image of God. As a result, we can love, share ideas, imagine, hold opinions, appreciate art and music, and so on. The issue here is whether a human couple were formed physically out of nothing at that time or whether God blessed an existing human animal with his own breath.



I'm pretty confused here. If this is true, then at what 'point' did humans 'evolve' and that is just my point. evolution is a gradual process not a 'point' specifically, so when did the 'creature' become human? was it more or less human at the beginning or later or ?

I know there are fancy words for all these ideas but I don't know them all. So I hope I don't sound stupid to you

But there is a law of ?________ that says everything goes downhill or deteriorates. I don't know of anything that improves upon itself? or could improve itself with out intervention.
Everything dies, rots, falls apart, disintegrates, erodes, well you get the picture.
So now, is man getting smarter or faster? or stronger or healthier or more immune? or more genetically pure as time goes by? If not, then the evolution theory seems bogus.
It just doesn't add up from that perspective.

 

here's a thought, the Bible states that man was made for God's enjoyment, to worship him. ect.
Why would God take millions of years for a human to evolve, when he could just make one.

Again I guess that looks at God from a human perspective, but it just seems silly for God to make bread dough and wait on it to rise.

 

It's the third law of thermodynamics: the total entropy in the universe only ever increases (entropy is, essentially, disorder). This is true of the universe as a whole, but localized order happens all the time. Still, I'm sure that both of us would agree that God guided the process. Our only point of difference is 'how'.

 

That is cute!

 

For a moment, let's move away from the world of science and into the realm of speculation. There's always an element of danger to doing this, so I want to make very clear that what follows is only a suggestion - nothing more.

As part of the process of evolution of species, the human animal appeared on the scene. We don't know exactly when, but it doesn't really matter. For some time, maybe, this creature roamed the earth. At some point, God looked with favor on this creature - and breathed his life into a pair. They were now very different: they were made in the image of God. (Indeed, I would suggest that one of the principal purposes of the whole process of evolution was to 'create' humankind. In doing so, though, an incredible array of plants and animals appeared on the scene. Can you think of a more beautiful and impressive process?)

Let's call this couple and their offspring "sons of God." Let's call the other human animals on earth, those not made in the image of God, "sons of men." Now turn to Genesis 6 and see what happens: The sons of God start to interbreed with the sons of men. Can you think of anything more terrible in the sight of God? God's own children were turning their back on him and breeding with animals! This, to my mind, is something so extreme, so rebellious, and so abominable that the flood becomes understandable. Its goal was to wipe out the "sons of men", their offspring, and the hybrids that resulted from their union with sons of God. Maybe Noah and his family were the only true sons of God left on the earth. For sure, this is an unusual interpretation of this passage, but it would certainly explain rather a lot.

This may be an unexpected answer to your question, and I'm sorry for taking this thread so off topic, but it would cast a whole new light on some of the fossil discoveries of very early humans, which may have wandered the earth for quite some time.

Note: I could be, and maybe deserve to be, criticized for such speculation. Indeed, Paul warns us against idle speculation. On the other hand, we've been blessed with the ability to think and to question and to imagine - which is what I'm doing here.

 

I have my suspicions that there's much more to it than this. The bible is largely silent on what happens before we are born. It goes a lot more into what happens after we die. Still, there are some intriguing hints about our past. We're told that God knew us before we were formed in the womb. We're also told that God saw us when we were 'unformed'. This implies to me that we were created long before he clothed us "with skin and flesh, and knit us together with bones and sinews." So, who exactly were we before we were born? Why was our spirit knit together with an animal body? What does our acceptance of the Lord and our salvation have to do with this bigger picture? Is our redemption bigger than just our earthly redemption? We don't know and there's no way of finding out this side of heaven, but I suspect we will be in for some surprises when all is revealed.

As for not creating man in a flash - where is the "fun" in that? Our God's actions reveal so much about his personality. Creating a human being in isolation would be akin to doodling. Instead, he created a fantastic world based on stable laws. It started with low entropy and is driven by increasing entropy. He created a very simple life form - a spark that would light the most beautiful fire ever lit. As a result, all the species on earth appeared, with all their remarkable markings and habits and habitats. We get a small glimpse of this, watching the incredible nature documentaries on TV etc. To God, as he reflects on his glory, it must be so "good!" Yes, sin entered the world, but this gives us the opportunity to experience God's love and mercy and grace. Where would all these things be if we were created in an instant as a play-thing? We're not just play-things, as I intimated above. We're much more than that: We're children.

 

Sounds somewhat similar to Judaic mysticism of the Kabbalah.

On the other hand, we could be living in an illusion. Let's say, for example, that God is spirit only, not matter, then his creation in His likeness would also be spiritually pure and good. We merely seem to be experiencing a material existence, so all that is of matter is not of God and all that is evolution, a study of the material world that really does not exist in God's realm, is simply distraction from the spiritual and from God Himself.

If you want to go down the corridor of speculation, I can open many more doors.

How ever He wanted to do it and He obviously chose to make it obscure or perhaps we do not recognize His interaction because we were not made to do so or we are too sinful/impure of spirit to see what would be obvious. Perhaps we were meant to seek beyond that which is limited to this material existence, to discover the spiritual realm, continuing to seek God. I think if nothing else, the Bible guides us in learning how to exercise faith: believing in the things unseen.

Ever read Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions? That can really change one's perception and probably should be required reading.

 

No. If you recommend it, though, I'd be glad to order it and read on a plane ride.