We're giving the government a reason to regulate homeschooling

Here I go, jumping overboard again!

I have a strong suspicion that as human beings, we (yep, the "we" again) look at evidence with tunnel vision. The evidence is the evidence and is universally the same for everyone regardless of their opinions/beliefs.
However, we fall into the trap of thinking the evidence can ONLY be interpretted ONE way. This is true for all humans no matter who or what they believe.(Including me!) There is no way to completely remove bias. Evidence will be interpretted based on experience. In science, an experiment has to be repeatable (ie: experience) in order to be proven. In the spiritual realm, we follow Christ more closely as we experience His love and forgivness, increasing our faith.
Condemning or showing contempt for someone because they don't agree with your interpretation of the evidence is wrong, in my opinion. In spite of Richard Dawkin's presense in the debate, I think young earth creationists have a tendency to be a bit more condemning of differing views. I say this with the admission the I lean toward the belief in young earth creation. However, A) I don't know everything, B) My interpretation does not make me spiritually superior, C) I can politely listen to differing views without condemning, D) Maybe there is something in the differing view I can learn from, even if it's nothing more than how to agree to disagree with humility.
Marty

 

Agreeing to disagree...

In our adamancy against outside regulation, may we not also need to resist the urge among ourselves to tell each other what "should" be taught and what "shouldn't?"

 

Exactly and very sage. Therein lies the hypocrisy: Homeschoolers trying to govern how others should homeschool so that homeschooling will not be governed.

I always find it fascinating how we are always tolerant of those who have complied with our own ideas enough so that we can tolerate them and in the end all we have proven, really, is how intolerant we really are. The real challenge is to love--not just tolerate, but see worth, respect, forgive, enjoy, etc.--the intolerable.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, or even the full first post. I don't have time any time soon to do so, so I shall apologize ahead of time.

Teaching what we believe as our basis of faith to my children is one of the reasons we continue to homeschool. For someone to claim that such may cause the government to regulate homeschooling is, first of all insulting, and second of all only proof to me that the world - and our country - is moving in a direction of oppression.

Know what? Christians aren't the only ones who believe in some form of creation.

I can provide you with just as many links to things that have been disproven in evolution as you provided as having been disproven from creation. Believe what you want, Steve, but please stop trying to convince the rest of us that what we're doing is wrong.

 

Point taken and accepted.

For the record, no one is questioning that the world was created. The differing opinions are about how it was created. It's also about the scientific method, which is fundamental to all the science, and whether evidence can be trusted. There's a lot of misleading writing from all sides on this topic, and very little tolerance.

 

ha, good, and please remember i'm pregnant and mean.

Gnight!

 

You never told me that! I'm now shaking in my boots!

 

I agree, Steve - I think the *most* important thing you can do as a homeschooler is teach your child to think critically, logically and to argue effectively.

And that means you must expose them not only to things that support your personal belief system, but also those things - widespread in society - that you disagree with. And it means you have to also teach them that it's okay to have a different opinion on something, just so long as they can back it up.

BTW - this is a general parenting issue, not just a homeschooling one. I know too many parents, not just homeschoolers, who just don't ever engage their kids in debate. And I think it's a shame.

 

Hear, hear!

We have raging debates around the dinner table. As my children have grown into adults, they've thought things through and disagree with me on plenty of topics. As long as they can defend their opinion with facts, proving they're not simply following the crowd, I am delighted about this. Should they be unsure, I encourage them to go back and rethink.

 

I grow so tired this debate (not this thread...the debate in general). I rarely think the government should step into any situation. I can't think of the last time the govt. stepped in and it benefited anyone but themselves.

I support a homeschooler's right to teach creationism. Without being too wordy...I echo what Seeking and Peanutsweet have already stated. I personally teach my kids both...yet to me one is fact and one is theory. I can accept that I will never have all the answers. I can accept that just because a man holds a degree in one hand and a beaker in the other, he is NOT wise. I see God in science. I don't fear science. I don't think science and God are separate. However, I DO NOT share the belief that God had a hand in evolution...solely because I decide to believe in God and I am convinced by man's evidence. I believe in the right to teach our children according to our faith.

I don't teach my kids new math...should the government come in and tell me I can't homeschool? I don't teach my kids that gays are born that way...should the gvt. tell me I can't homeschool? I don't teach my kids that sex before marriage is ok..so here's a condom...should the govt. tell me I cannot homeschool? I don't celebrate Black History Month, Women's History Month, or anything of the kind. I suppose I am unfit to homeschool.

It has been proven many times that kids who are homeschooled do very well in college. I'm not buying that this one topic will ruin my kids.

I do not see kids educated by a system turning out to be better in math and science than kids taught at home. To be frank, even if they were, I would still support the right to homeschool.

Steve, I have a ton of respect for you. I agree with you on many points...NOT this one..lol...but many others. I agree children should be educated on many different levels and with many different points of view. However, I disagree that evolution should be taught as fact. Evolution is NOT proven. Just because it is accepted by the masses of a Godless society doesn't make it true. I do not object to teaching it...I object to it being taught as truth. Sure there's evidence. There is also evidence supporting we never landed on the moon but we still teach kids in school we did. lol. Okay...that can be used to support either side. But then again, that is kind of the point. One could say faith blinds some to the "facts". One could also say fact blind some to faith. Some meld the two into one...believing God guided the process of evolution. I respect that others have their opinions. Let's keep our opinions and leave the government out.

Everyday we give away our freedom. Everyday we allow the government more control over our lives. We are not retaining our rights if we compromise. If I teach evolution under threat that the government will think I am not capable of homeschooling...I am essentially giving up a freedom. Now, I do teach evolution..I do not fear a simple theory. I also don't give one hoot if another homeschool teaches it as fact.

 

Even if we were to leave God out of the whole thing, evolution is still not proven by science, it is full of theory's that are not proven. Many of the things that evolution scientists claim as absolute 'fact' have no merit. In fact some things 'proven' have later come to light as complete scams. Of course you don't hear that in the news...

 

EXACTLY....excellent point.

 

Without meaning to drag this out, this is one of the biggest frustrations for me. The evidence is overwhelming, with fossils now available, for example, for thousands of intermediate species. The theory has made specific predictions which genetic analysis has confirmed. We may not want to hear that, we may choose to ignore the evidence, but it's there. For anyone interested, there are hundreds of thousands of detailed technical journal papers that detail this stuff. 'Theory' in science does not have the same meaning as 'theory' in everyday life. Gravity is just a theory, but do we question it?

Regardless of this discussion, what does it take to shift any of us, myself included, from a mistaken opinion? Like everyone else, I'm guilty of holding opinions based on the view of a majority or of a particular group with which I associate. That's the way we are; confirmation bias is always there. But sometimes new information comes to light that contradicts an opinion, and I have a choice: Dig in my heels because I don't want to be proved wrong, or open my mind to the possibility that I'm mistaken. One piece of new data may not cause me to rethink my view, but a steady stream of new information really ought to. The problem is, though, that it's not easy - especially in this day and age when pressure groups demand conformity.

IMO, this is one of the primary purposes of education. It causes us to think, to challenge, to reconsider, to push the envelope, to think outside the box, and to understand other ideas. We don't have to be neutral and throw away our beliefs, but we shouldn't be teaching only conformity. Education is opening up new frontiers, not shutting out information. We should be able to defend our positions because we know not only that position in detail but understand the opposing opinions as well.

Different Christians in history have come to different conclusions. Pascal, one of the greatest Christian thinkers, believed that experience was divided into three domains. For example, he was adamant that the physical realm is distinct from the spiritual realm and we shouldn't use tools in one to try to prove something in the other. Similarly, Faraday belonged to a very strict church group (akin to the strictest of Plymouth Brethren) yet was one of the greatest of scientists: He kept these two aspects of his life very separate and did not allow the one to affect the results of the other. Newton, on the other hand, believed that gravity was directly influenced by God, who used the 'ether' in some way to accomplish this. Yet he was never afraid to use the phrase "I don't know", and this is what made him perhaps the greatest: He was always open to the possibility that he could be wrong. This is what led to some of his greatest ideas and discoveries.

 

CornishSteve, did you open this thread trying to prove that all here who are not pro-evolution are blind religious zealots, or that we need to be educated about evolution, or because you feel that we should only teach what is acceptable by our government's standards in fear so that our government will leave homeschooling alone? Regardless of your reasons, I appreciate your perspective, but aren't you getting a bit weary of tramping over your own footprints?

The purpose of education, from my point of view, is to use the knowledge and understanding with Godly wisdom so that one can recognize the Lord's guidance and be used for His purpose, otherwise the honor of achieving an good education is just vanity. Many uneducated people throughout the ages with less opportunities, narrower paths and greater obstacles have done greater services for the Lord. While I treasure education and the opportunities it provides, I also recognize that it only serves oneself in this world, if it does not serve the Lord in this world. And, what worth will the belief in evolution or having a great education be in heaven? I firmly believe that the Lord provides and entrusts us with all that is needed to fulfill His purpose, therefore He will provide the education necessary for each in preparation for His calling and that may not be what we consider an "education" by worldly standards.

 

Of course not. Many would call me a blind religious zealot in some areas.

The purpose is to ensure we teach with an open mind, not a closed mind; that we teach views with which we disagree as well as views with which we agree; that we don't totally ignore mainstream, accepted science; that we provide our children with the knowledge needed to defend their stance. Again, education is about openness and asking questions, not blindly believing what we are told (independent of worldview).

And, more than anything, not to deliberately antagonize the authorities by making a very public issue of this one aspect of science, because the authorities will at some point come down with a hammer. That's not what anyone wants, especially since it would pit Christians who believe in evolution against those who don't. The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, so why make it such a big deal?

Plus, in all good conscience, it's just not right to say there is no evidence for evolution. It's so patently not true. If it's controversial to make that point, then so be it. We all have the right to ignore the evidence, but we cannot deny that it exists. That too is going to feed the case of those who wish to regulate. That is my concern, and that's the reason I started the thread.

 

I agree with Seeking...100%. I couldn't have said it better.

Steve, I respect you. I know you are accomplished and very intelligent. I also agree with you much of the time. However, it seems your banner is to get Christians to object to evolution to see the light and recognize that God authored the evolution you speak of. If knowing what I believe means I have a closed mind...then case (or mind) closed. I know you will walk away from this thinking that those of us who disagree with you are closed minded and not willing to look past our faith or belief. You may find it crazy we can so easily disregard what can be "seen" and cling to a truth we cannot see. I can live with that. My homeschool does not rise on fall on evolution. A person can disagree with you can live a full life even in the field of science. I realize you may not understand how we can reject what you are saying...you may think we don't even understand what you are saying.

Why shift from my beliefs? Have you proven me wrong? Have you proven God's glory and the blood of Christ a myth? I know you are not attempting to sway us from a belief in God. Yet, why must I shift? My beliefs have been a long time coming. I have explored others ways of thought. I am educated in arts, science, history, etc. Yet, I was always pursued by the truth of Christ. The truth I stand on, I can see in everything. Can I always explain it? No. I feel bad for those who cannot have faith in a God so great. I feel bad for those who cannot look beyond what others tell them is truth. The masses, evidence, and science have been proven wrong many times. Evidence is interpreted by man. Evidence can be tainted. The evolution and history of science is clear on this. What will we believe is scientific evidence 20 years from now? What will be held as truth now that will be proven wrong with more technology?

I know one thing that has yet to disappoint or be proven wrong. You know where that is going.

You wonder why I cannot accept that God authored evolution? Where is the evidence in that? You choose to believe that because you have loyalty to your field and your God.

 

I agree with you here. Yet, if I believe in the Bible as truth then I teach from that stand. You would accuse me of hypocrisy otherwise. Sure, I tell my kids the other side of things. yet, we are to conform our minds to Christ. I cannot ignore what I have committed to uphold for the sake of not being considered closed minded.

Well, on this board the only one who seems passionate is you. lol. No offense. I don't antagonize the authrorities..but I won't teach what I don't believe to appease them either. I have freedom. I stand on freedom..that's it..not on evolution or creation as much a the freedom for all of use to teach how we believe is best.

In all good conscience, it's not right to say there is no evidence for intelligent design. It is not right to say there is no evidence that the Bible is true. You don't see me making a point that all homeschools should add in Abraham, Moses and Noah into their history timeline since evidence supports they existed. There is more evidence that Christ died and rose again than many other "historical facts". In light of that, why do the public schools teach some history and leave out some history? Why do the public schools ignore the archeological evidence of the Bible? We all have our points of view. Like it or not, systems and government have agendas. I don't backdown on truth because I fear a government agenda.

 

For sure, the Lord often gives us the words to say and brings to our mind the information we need to deal with a situation. Nonetheless, education puts that information in our minds in the first place and organizes it appropriately. I think of the brain as a large closet with thousands of drawers. Every time we learn something, we file away another item in another drawer. Later, the Lord may guide us to one drawer or another. If the drawers are empty, though, that's our issue to deal with.

So many times I've witnessed young people who goof off and don't really study for an exam - but pray in a meeting for the Lord to help them to get a wonderful grade. Frankly, if they never put the information in those drawers, they won't do well on the exam. That's our responsibility. The more 'useful' information we store and the better it's organized, the more we can use our education in the Lord's service.

Now we're getting into the purpose of education in general.

 

I don't think anything we (those who disagree) said conflicts with the purpose of education. I am not afraid of education or science. I welcome it. However, nothing has changed my beliefs thus far. Should I not teach that as well? How can the Lord guide my children from one drawer to another if they reject the Lord or see education as their god? Yes, fill the drawers...but let's forget who gave you the drawers to fill and who you serve.

 

For the record, I would never think that.

I look at my own life and see so many areas where, for a long time, my mind was closed about something. I was sincere in my faith, but I was sincerely wrong. Yes, we are called to be child-like, but, in Paul's words, I was sticking with milk and refusing to chew the meat. Looking back, I do think that I was striving to be faithful. There are areas of my life today where I am probably unwittingly wrong, simply because I go with the flow and am not willing to think differently or be the odd one out. So, if I was to view you as close-minded, I'd be condemning myself. It's not crazy to have faith. The more time goes by, though, I learn that it doesn't have to be blind faith.