We're giving the government a reason to regulate homeschooling

Point taken. I have seen an evolution of my faith and understanding over the years as well. We all mature...learn... and have things revealed to use as we learn to open our eyes and ears. Faith does not have to blind. Yet, we have to stand firm on truth and not be swayed by forces that wish only to move us one step further from our purpose.

I am not saying you are wrong. For you to be so entrenched in a world that normally rejects God and yet your remain faithful, proves your devotion and character.

I am not putting my faith in evolution or theories or evidence...I put it in God. I would be blind if I listened to flawed men and flawed evidence and allowed that to sway me from truth. There are times I don't know what to believe...not as far a God or the bible...but as far as the details. During those times I cling to what I know to be true. I am always willing to listen...but if it conflicts with what I hold as truth, I reject it...or file it under "not sure about that one yet."

 

And that's absolutely the right way to do it. The fundamentals will never change. As for the details, new information may cause us to look again. And, as did Isaac Newton all the time, it's quite OK to realize and accept that we don't know. Humility in all aspects of life turns out to be a strength.

 

Yes, well it would be nice if evolution scientists would use the phrase 'we don't know' instead of pushing false 'facts' to the masses that swallow it hook, line and sinker.

 

Steve,
This isn't a site just for Christians, but I happen to be one and I choose to believe that man was created in God's image. It does not say that God made apes and then let them evolve into humans. There is an aspect of Christianity that I believe is very pertinent to this argument--FAITH. I think there is a certain danger to science when it attempts to explain what the Bible says. There is also a danger when we take certain knowledge and use it in ways that are unGodly-such as cloning--I believe we are playing with fire. Another way science can be used that is immoral is using embryos to harvest their stem cells. A living human being should not be "used" and "destroyed/killed" to benefit anyone else. The point I am making is I think in some ways people are putting themselves above God-when they try to argue against something that the Bible says or using knowledge to commit evil acts. I know I am being harsh, but in some ways you are just as harsh:

1. You claim that creationism has been proved false-that is insulting to many people who believe otherwise.

2. You say that this one item in science is enough to cause the government to want to regulate homeschoolers. I think that this is a over argued, wasted study. If we are to study science--I whole heartedly believe that we don't even need to cover creationism/evolution.

3. As far as why students lose their faith--I doubt it is because of the argument of evolution. There are many factors and who really knows what they all are. Some of them might be: the age of the person (young, impressionable), the liberal viewpoints of other students and the staff, the general lack of faith present in many colleges (even many so-called Christian colleges) and so forth.

One more thing---Why aren't the apes and monkeys in the world evolving into humans? I would suspect that this would be an ongoing occurence.

 

Yes there are thousands of fossils. The age of those fossils cannot be proved by any means that I am aware of. It is not possible. Since we cannot test the test to make sure it is accurate, we have no base to start from.

Whether those fossils are 'intermediate species' or not is more opinion than proven. If you are talking about change withIN a species, yes, but if you are talking about one species involving into another, I understand that is false science?

Genetic analysis or other tests are not always correct.

 

On a side note--If my son goes to college I would have no problem with him failing a test if it is over evolution. I would rather have him stand for what he believes than pass that test.

 

As we've seen already, it's difficult to discuss this issue without some things coming across the wrong way. While I apologize for that, I do expect you to write what you want, no matter how harsh. Using this medium (an online forum) can be difficult sometimes.

From the point of view of science, this is true. When faith is wrapped up with a particular interpretation of science, this can come across as an insult to someone's faith. Nonetheless, the fundamental tenets on which Intelligent Design is based - e.g., irreducible complexity - have been shown to be just plain wrong (I posted links about this earlier).

This is not to say that there is no creator. This is not to say that our world wasn't created. It has nothing to do with faith. From the standpoint of science, a theory that makes specific claims can be challenged through experiment and data. ID has been proved to be wrong. So too was the 'steady state' theory of the universe proposed by atheists. Science is neutral; it examines the world the way it is. We can choose to accept that information or not.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'm really not meaning to be. It's a statement of scientific fact, not opinion. Maybe one day evolution will be proved to be wrong as well, but that's not the case today.

Time frames. Nonetheless, even in the last decade, we've seen some viruses evolve so they can feed on plastic, for example.

Anyway, I get nervous now every time I add to this thread. I'm getting on too many nerves, so I must resist responding to every new question!

 

It is by blindness to that which we perceive by our senses that people see the spiritual, which is not visible. I cannot prove it, but it is truth.

Is truth believing the Bible--literally, perhaps?--as long as science cannot disprove it?

I just watched two or three Discovery Channel shows in the last couple of months proving there was not a worldwide flood, but only a flood in the Mediterranean area. One show also proved the Noah's ark could not possibly have the dimensions sited in the Bible. Where do we draw the line on what is truth? Is the Bible just a bunch of writings from authors exaggerating and romanticizing events perceived or imagined, in other words, myths and superstitions, mixed with some real historical events?

When science can prove God's existence, then we will have truth, but at that point we will not need faith, will we? Some make the argument for evolution asking why would God lie and likewise the atheist asks why does God hide, while the Christian sees Him everywhere! One truth I have come to know is that even as we spiritually mature and become closer to the Lord, we still need faith and it seems to me that the closer to God a person is, the more he perceives the spiritual realm and becomes less concerned about proving anything that is not of an eternal nature.

In other words, Steve, you can continue to tramp on your own footsteps regarding this subject, but the real question is how does it serve the Lord to do so? If all Christians believe in evolution exactly as you do, does that prove to the non-Christian evolutionists there really is a God?

 

This is also a wider issue. Why do I object strenuously when someone from the pulpit implies that everyone must be politically conservative? Because believers who are Democrats feel ostracized. Why do I object strenuously when church leaders spend millions on buildings and plea in sermons for more money? Because believers who are very poor are made to feel inadequate and guilty. Why do I object strenuously when mainstream science is ridiculed in church? Because scientists and others are made to feel uncomfortable and unwanted in church.

And if believers feel this way, how must unbelievers feel? Why ever would Democrats and the very poor and scientists ever set foot in a church? Why would gays and illegal immigrants ever visit a church? We're called upon to shine the light of the gospel so that it is heard by all, yet our actions keep so many people from the church. When Jesus calmed the storm, it was on the way to reaching out to one of the most despicable individuals alive at the time - but Jesus loved him. He went out of his way to reach him. (I'm sure that man was a liberal, by the way. )

I once conducted a survey of a couple hundred people, and more than one-third responded that they would never visit a church because of, in their eyes, illiteracy about science. Yes, by making a big deal of these things, I fear we'll bring regulation on ourselves. Worse, though, we may find ourselves applying a litmus test on anyone who dares to enter a church building. We're in danger of becoming a "holy huddle."

As I mentioned, though, this is a much wider issue. Yes, it is all about serving the Lord.

 

Steve, the trouble with focusing on the things one dislikes is that he often becomes what he dislikes. Is it really your agenda on this thread is to use it as your pulpit to judge and shame Christians who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible?

That people do not feel welcome in a church rarely has ANYTHING to do with the members not being accepting and friendly, and there are so many flavors in regards to churches now that certainly that is not a hindrance. No, in truth, we can blame the church but it has far more to do with their own condition with God than the church itself. The church is just symbolic in this regard.

 

I think those who say they feel unwelcome in church are simply using that as a carnal excuse not to go to church. I go to an independent fundamental baptist church and we do not turn our backs on anyone.

Also, church is NOT NOT NOT for the unsaved. If you are unsaved you most likely feel unwelcome because of your spiritual condition or lack there of. If you are saved and feel unwelcome...again it most likely has more to do with you than the church.

Also, church cannot compromise their doctrine simply to fill up the pews.

 

I took an anthropology class in college and missed several questions on tests on this issue. I never understood why the teacher felt the need to add God in as a wrong answer. There was a question about the creation of the earth and considered one of the wrong answers was "God made the world." I found that insulting. There was NO need for that. If I put another religion's deity as a wrong answer on a test given in a public university, I would be tarred and feathered. lol.

One of the first questions this prof asked was, "Who believes in intelligent design?" My friend and I were the ONLY ones in a class of 25 to raise our hands. The prof responded, "You are who I'm looking for!" She then proceeded to give her evidence against intelligent design. Even the the other classmates began to see us as the enemy. No kidding! Before this, they were friendly...after this...we were out. That is until the prof proved to be stupid in other ways and I was NOT shy about pointing it out. This resulted in her having to raise several people's grades on a test. They liked me for that one class. lol.

The teacher also tried to convince my friend and I of the same stuff you are, Steve. That was after her failed attempt to sway us from our belief in God. The class even chimed in and ganged up on us. We hardly said a word and NEVER brought it up.

I took a Buddhist Philosophy course (counted as three courses..related, my minor (philosophy) and multi-cultural). The first day the prof asked people to come to the front and meditate. Only me and one other girl decided that was completely insane. What if I asked, in a public university, for people to come up and pray? I dropped the class..lol. I then took it online. That was not much better. During a "discussion" someone mentioned Jesus and the Bible. Being a Christian, I answered the concern. After that I became a target. Months had gone by without one word against Christianity....until they found one in their midst. From that point on...I was constantly being challenged or insulted in one clever way or another.

This is the reason to prepare your kids. Some are like lions in wait with mouths watering to destroy your beliefs. From my end, it seems those who believe in evolution make a bigger deal out of it than Christians. We just simply don't believe it. Yet, we are constantly being challenged.

Now, am I a whiny baby saying that I didn't feel welcome in college? LOL. Whatever. I didn't go to college to be popular.

 

While "the church", the body of Christ, includes only believers, we hold specific services and events in church buildings so those outside the body of Christ can hear the gospel message. Isn't that one of the primary purposes of the church? No matter what a person's background, they should not feel unwelcome. If there are issues for them to deal with, the Lord will sort them out once they are truly a member of the "church."

I remember momofafew relating how someone kept her, a believer, out of a church service. In a sense, this is quite symbolic of what "cultural" issues are doing in general. By becoming political activists and making a furore out of non-essential things, the church in public eyes is now branded as conservative, wealthy, uncaring, homophobic, Muslim-bashing, flag-waving, and science-illiterate. None of these things relate to the gospel message, and it's just not a true picture, but sadly we do things to feed this image.

AR, I'm not implying at all that we should "water down" the gospel message to fill the pews; far from it. Many churches have specific gospel services, and we should be doing all in our power to invite others to them and not to give them reasons not to. Through the years, I've attended services of this type, occasionally only to hear a message that focuses on politics and abortion and Muslims and anti-evolution and the rest - things that are irrelevant to the gospel message.

We're getting onto other topics now, which maybe is a good thing.

 

You're absolutely right. A professor had an obvious agenda. On the other hand, I've heard of students in a public university who were given the opportunity to argue their case for ID because the professor wanted students to challenge one another to be sure they understand. I'm sure it depends very much on the situation.

 

Steve...I understand what you are saying. However, we are supposed to go out and bring others to Christ and then bring them to church. The church has never been for the unsaved. Why? While, we will always have tares among the wheat....we cannot encourage it. My church does encourage bringing unsaved people to church in order to get them saved...however, that is because people rely on the church for this and don't do it themselves. The bible does NOT use the church but a disciple to bring others to Christ. It's one thing for a church to host an event or go into the community in the name of Christ..it's another for them to bring in unsaved individuals to be members of the church. The natural man understandeth not spiritual things. So how can he participate in the church an act on Christ's behalf?

 

While we are told that we should be accommodating to other cultures, I think it is often ignored that we have our own culture and this country was created and sustained by religious/political activists. Even Martin Luther King Jr. was a religious/political activist! That being said, the American way of doing things is you have the freedom to chose your religion, sect, and church or worship at home however you like and there are plenty of flavors from which to pick these days.

I also agree with Ava, the church is for those who are believers, not that unbelievers are not welcome to visit. In all the stories about Jesus, I do not remember reading one where He brought non-Jewish people to the temple. It just was not done. The church should be a place to worship with fellow believers, a place to minister to each other, and a place to prepare us in our discipleship so that we can go out to the people as representatives of the Lord. So, if a number of churches in your area are not doing that for you, there are others that probably will.

 

As an Atheist, who does believe in Evolution, I do not believe that teaching creationism gives the government a reason to regulate homeschooling. I believe some government officials may try to use that as a reason to intrude themselves into the education of our children, but I do not believe that it is right. As an American, freedom of speech and freedom of religion are very important to me, and I would fight to support Christians' rights to teach Creationism to their children.

First of all, not all homeschoolers will go to college, and even fewer will use biology in any significant way in their adult lives. Seriously, how many homeschoolers, or public or private schoolers for that matter will take advanced Biology classes?

While I agree that intelligent design in the way the Bible describes it has been dis-proven, the existence of a creator or many creators has not been dis-proven. In my mind, if there must be a creator, he/she/it/they would need a creator as well, which just makes you go around in circles and never ends. This is one of many reasons I am an Atheist. But, I also have a difficult time comprehending that the universe has been around forever, and I am an Atheist in the sense that there are no gods I believe in, not that I believe that gods are an impossibility.

Even if Evolution were not an issue, there are many other problems with the Bible that would crop up next. What are you suggesting teaching children... that the Bible is wrong or not literal? I mean, this is what I teach my children, but you are putting yourself in a difficult position here as a Christian.

This would indeed be a scary day that I would gladly fight against alongside Christians.

Free speech is the difference. While we have freedom of speech, we don't have the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre. You may speak freely in this country unless that speech puts someone in danger.

 

Mandiana...nicely stated...while we are on opposite ends of the spectrum since I am a creationist, your post was wonderful. I also support the rights of all homeschoolers even if I do not believe in their stance. Why? Because I support the freedom this country was founded on. Most homeschoolers thrive on freedom...you can't expect support even from nonChristians on this issue if it prohibits freedom.

 

Here we would differ. For me, the matter of the bible's authority goes without saying; that's part of the Christian faith. The issue is how some passages are interpreted. As I've mentioned before, some took "the earth is fixed and its foundations cannot be moved" to mean science is wrong when it claims the evidence points to heliocentricity. Time proved that science was right, and it was a matter of taking a bible verse out of context. As well as history, the bible is full of poetry, allegory, and plenty of other forms of writing. Given the big differences between our age, language, and culture and the age, language, and culture of the inspired writers, it's not surprising that we interpret some things wrongly. Personally, I'm delighted when evidence comes to light that proves this to be the case because I don't want to be in error. Plenty of Christian writers from the past (as far apart as Augustine and CS Lewis) wrestled with this.

As for your point about a creator needing a creator, that's only true when you think in terms of our time-based existence. When we realize that our space-time fabric as a whole is created and that time is just one dimension of it, there is no issue here. A creator is outside of time, so why the need for a beginning or an end? In a sense, eternity doesn't mean "never ending" as much as it means "existence outside of time altogether." There's a hymn that includes the phrase "and time shall be no more"; this is a nice way of putting it.

Anyway, for the umpteenth time, I digress.

 

Whether heliocentricity or geocentricity is absolute depends on your perspective regarding general relativity and, again, it really does not matter that much. Fairly accurate calculations can be made both ways, as I understand it.