I think what I will do is watch the thread and just kind of act like a stander by. I haven't been offended in the least, but I do see on a few occassions where others chould have gotten offended. I think when we get into a discussion like this it's easy for people to think that others are making themselves seem more "Christian". Not saying any of you are, for we are ALL sinners, but I think you get my point. Again, I don't think any of you are doing that, it's just easy for people to misinterpret what others say sometimes easily. Anyway what any family chooses in this area is blessed by God. I dated many guys (don't take that as "I was a slut", that's not what I meant-I just couldn't think of anything better to explain) before I met my husband and I learned something from each relationship that I had. God blessed me with my husband when I went away to college at 20 years old. I didn't meet my husband through the process of betrothal, and may not have ever because it's not what my husband's family believes either. I am truly blessed to have found my husband. He's a great father, husband, and friend. We have built a foundation with God that will last for eternity, and that is what is most important to us, not HOW we got there, but that we ARE there.
I'm game if you're game! This has been a fun topic for me as well. It's been a while since I've had to dust off the ol' noodle and answer questions concerning my beliefs. And now... what will that boy say next... You are right. If you had obeyed your mom you would have been breaking the commandment of God in Colossians 3:18 that tell wives to submit to their husbands and thereby destroying the future blessings God had for your life. Please notice that later on in verse 20 the Bible tells children to obey their parents, not wives or husbands. Jackie was right when she said that "when a woman marries, she is NO LONGER under her parents' covering, but her husband's. That means your obedience shifts from them to him." You are also right when you said "Honoring our parents doesn't mean to do exactly what they say." It is true that you can respectfully not do what your parents tell you to do once you are married and not disobey any commandment of God. But the command to honor our fathers and mothers is one of the 10 commandments given to all, men, women, and children, and there aren't any exceptions. Just as if you had obeyed your mother after you were married and ruined your blessings then, you can do the same by not honoring her and ruining any possible future blessings today. God can make good out of anything we do. But He can only truly bless us when we do as He asks. God will not tempt us beyond that which we are able. God commanded children to obey their parents. That means God will not have us do anything that would cause us to disobey our parents. An example of this could be when God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. God wanted to see if Abraham would do what He said and when Abraham proved his faith, God provided an alternate sacrifice and spared Isaac. God will always provide a way for us to keep His commandment and His will. God is the protector of the innocent. Having a parent abuse a child is WAY different than a parent telling a child to do something the child doesn't believe to be God's will. If a child is in an abusive situation, they need to seek God and ask for help outside the home. There would be nothing wrong with that to my knowledge even if the parent told them not to. The covering of abuse and obedience are two different things in my mind. But we also need to remember that it is possible for us in our limited knowledge to form a hypothetical that is outside the application of reality. Like I said above, God will not tempt us beyond that which we are able. God will always provide a way for us to keep His commandment and His will. So I like to stray away from the hypothetical... Then we are on the same page. I'm sorry I misunderstood your statement. As far as my believing betrothal to be the only right method for everyone... I believe betrothal is the best method in general. I agree it isn't applicable in some cases, but I believe things would turn out better if it could be. On a side note I would never force my beliefs on anyone, but I will defend my beliefs until someone comes along and proves to me with the Bible where I'm wrong. I do not want you all to think I'm trying to force betrothal on any of you. It has been my intent to best answer everyone's questions and to deal with any concerns any might have concerning betrothal. I fully understand that betrothal is simply not applicable in some homes because a family must be raised with betrothal in order to accept it. That is why I shared betrothal with everyone here. It is my hope that some of you will see the benefits betrothal brings to a child's future and try to apply the required precepts to your children before it's too late. One can't just simply say, "We're doing betrothal." Betrothal is something a family needs to work up to. Also, this topic isn't a topic of condemnation. Our pasts are our pasts. This is a topic about the future. How are you going to raise your children to find their mates? This isn't about us, it's about them. I'm just a man with a plan... Not the man with the answers...
Jackie, I agree with you. Well said! I guess I won't be getting that big tomato you've saved for me after all . Josh, It has been a pleasure having a discussion with you. I admire your sincere passion/strong conviction for what you believe in. God bless.
Ha, I wrote my answer to some of the first messages, not realizing there were 3 or more pages of comments I had left unread. My comments really didn't make sense where they showed up! Anyway, Josh, I appreciate your strong beliefs and desire to stick to them unless someone can show you from the Bible that you are wrong. I can see your point very clearly, and it was made clearer when you said the girl has chosen betrothal also. I almost sensed a frustration when people said it sounded cultish and mean and evil, etc. Not just from what they said, cuz everyone has a right to their own beliefs, but the fact that you were trying to make it clear and it wasn't coming across as you wished it were to everyone. I can see where others could feel it didn't make sense for them since they were raised so differently, but I liked your comment where you said that you were sharing the idea of betrothal so some may see the benefits and maybe apply it to their childrens' futures. Betrothal is what my brother and sister and I would have called "Old-fashioned". I'm not good at putting thoughts and feelings to words, but I guess you can count me, Josh, as one of those who "listened" to all sides of the story and came away with a positive leaning toward betrothal. It's NOT an easy way, but God never promised his way would be easy. He DID, however, promise to always be with us to help us through tough times! It's good you listened to your parents and allowed yourself to learn from your negative experience. When the right girl DOES come along, I know you will see clearly the good that has come, and the wonderful relationship you will have, by following God and your parents! Thankyou for continuing to share!
I believe that was what made it semi-frustrating for some, including myself. Knowing that all parties choose it makes a lot more sense. I certainly didn't mean to sound belittling in any way when I brought up the "cult-like" description, it was for lack of better words. I am basically a neutral party, not saying anything negative about either side. It depends on what is right for you and your family. Everything and every way is not meant for every person. I would never be judgmental to anyone who chooses something different than myself, but we can all certianly have our opinions. Sorry if I sounded that way.
Betrothal is not new to me I have read alot about it. I also witnessed the whole process of an arranged marriage in India and most everyone knows about dating .. After having years to think about it and seeing how they all work, I agree that betrothal is the best way to go about finding a spouse but I see it as impractical in our society. What I mean is that as a male you have more options in this area but as a woman I just don't. You can look for a woman to pray about God's will to marry and tell her family about the idea but seeing as I have only heard of people doing this and never actually met anyone who does.. I could be waiting for an eternity just because most people have never heard of betrothal let alone practice it. I try not to limit God, He can work anything out but I have a hard time accepting that the one Man for me has a good chance of choosing betrothal over another method.
"The difference between courting and dating. In a dating relationship you begin by just being together and trying to make your relationship as close as possible to that of a mairage relationship without actualy breaking the bounds so that the couple may decide if they want to get married. It as also based on just the two of them doing things together as opposed to a courtship relationship in which the relationship is based around the family, permission is asked of the father to court the daughter and the family is very involved in everything the couple is seldom left alone. That leaves less chance for the two to get into mischief. Also in courtship you begin the relationship expecting to marry the girl, you do not begin the courtship relationship untill you think thats the girl you want to marry. And at that point, though you dont ask for her hand, you go to her father and ask him to court her, and if he says yes than that is the time to get to know each other as well as the family as well as to prepare, and once prepared, finacialy and emotionaly, then you may become engaged and get married, so if theres anything that wants clarifying i know i didnt write this to clearly. But if you have any questions feel free to ask me.
Syele, if you put your faith in God, you don't have to worry about a thing. That's the best part of betrothal, it takes ENORMOS faith! Can you imagine a marriage based on faith that big? Big enough to trust God even when you can't even see a possibility of things working out? Anyway, I would like to encourage you with a story about how God answered a prayer my family and I didn't even have the faith to pray about. It goes like this: Have you ever heard of Chad and Heidi Eves? S.M. Davis mentioned them in his video on courtship/betrothal and they did a Dateline piece called "My One and Only" about courtship/betrothal. Well, we saw their story when it was first aired on Dateline and thought to ourselves, "Wouldn't it be nice to be able to talk to those families and get some more advice and details?" Then we heard about them again through S.M. Davis and said the same thing again. We honestly didn't think we'd ever meet anyone even like them, let alone THEM because we were stuck out in the middle of "Podunk," Kansas with little or no likeminded people even within a 200-mile radius! (I'm sure that's probably an exaggeration, but it sounds good. ) Anyway, about two years ago (and around three years later) my family and myself moved to Michigan from Kansas. Once up in Michigan we heard about this church in Greenville so we decided to check it out. And who do you think went to that church? Nope, sorry, not Chad and Heidi, but Heidi's family, the Haydens. At first we didn't know who they were, but we figured it out real quick when one of Heidi's sisters showed my sister a picture of Heidi. We just about came unglued! We laughed so hard that it took so long for us to connect the dots! They thought we were crazy because they hardly ever hear about anybody seeing them on Dateline or in S.M. Davis’ materials. It was a good 15 minutes of riot I think. Since then we've been able to meet Chad and Heidi, become good friends with the Haydens, and have been able to ask all the questions we could possibly think of. As a matter of fact, my younger brother was over at the Hayden's house and Chad and Heidi's house Saturday. We never would have thought when we first saw that Dateline interview that we'd actually meet them and befriend them around five years later. I still can't wrap my mind around it fully. So my point is, nothing is impossible with God and He's just waiting to line everything up just right. And that's what I tell myself whenever I get discouraged. I hope it will help you out too.
Josh, don't take offense to this, but you have to be careful of what you say. Just because someone doesn't choose betrothal doesn't mean they trust God any less. I was not a part of betrothal and my marriage is built on God just as much as the next person's. My faith is just as ENORMOUS as anyone elses and just because I 'dated' my husband doesn't mean I have any less faith as you. I am sure you didn't mean harm by that statament, but it's these kinds of words that may be upsetting some people, including myself. As Christians, it is not our job to compare the 'biggness' of our faith. Please just be careful of how you choose your words.
Actually Jen, he did understand where I was comming from. I had already said I thought betrothal was the best choice, but that I didn't see how it would work in my situation. My real issue with it is just that it's not very popular. Not that I want to follow the crowd but that it's easier to use the systems for finding a spouse that others are using... For example, would you sign up for a dating service where you were the only one signed up? If so, Would you refuse to sign up with any other one at the same time? Enormous faith is about where it would have to be for me to decide on that system for myself. My family dosn't quite understand betrothal, I'm 30 already and have a daughter. My family Does pray regularly for me to find a good husband but I have doubts they'd respond well if they were approached by someone the way betrothal works. Anyways, I'm not currently following any system. I don't date anyone. I just pray God will show me who I'm to marry. As for my daughter I pray for her future husband, whoever he is and I pray God will prepare her for life as an adult. I doubt I will let her date boys when she is a teenager.
I actually took it as a bit of a backhanded slap. I am sure there was no harm by the statement but I have a problem with statements that point out a person possibly having 'more faith' or 'less faith'. Faith is faith, and I guess those choosing betrothal I would admit maybe have a different kind of relationship with God, but it doesn't mean someone has more or less faith.
I just didn't take it the way you did. I hope he ment it the way I took it rather than how you did... just because I like to assume the best intentions from people. I do think it's possible to have more faith or less faith than someone else, I mean I know I have more faith than I had when I was younger and Now I certianly do not have enough to kill a fig(?) tree like Jesus did. But I don't think Josh was saying he had more faith than me, just that it takes LOTS of faith to follow the system of betrothal reguardless of a persons situation.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I believe there are people with more faith and less faith. Obviously someone who is saved has more faith than someone who is not saved, etc. I guess I am more referring it to myself and feeling like someone is saying "if you don't choose this way of life, then you don't have as much faith as me" kind of thing. I'm not sure if I worded the less/more faith thing correctly. I do believe you can have more or less faith than someone, but God does not measure our faith in how I go about choosing my mate. I guess that is what I was trying to get at. I'm not even sure I explained that correctly just now either. In all, I don't think it's proper to judge those who don't choose this way and say that it's the proper and only way and someone doesn't have as much faith in God if they don't choose that way. Like I said, I don't think there was harm in the statement, but I did feel like this when I read it. I cherish my relationship with God and my husband and I know God led me the way he did for a reason.
I guess I just didn't think he ment that because in my previous post I said I already thought it was the best option of the three. As I think was mentioned before in this thread... Forgive me If I remember wrong... I don't think it's the sort of thing salvation is hinged on, just one of those things that we have to choose what we think God wants for each individual. If I felt God wanted me to use this method I would do it. If others feel it's not what God wants them to do I think they should definatly NOT do it. I think it' s just something that is important to Josh and his responses reflect that, I don't think he is trying to say anyone is less of a person or less of a Christian if they disagree with him. I wanted to ask him questions because I never had an oppurtunity to talk to someone who actually used the method of finding a spouse (Sheesh! can't it have an easy word like dated?) but I did hesitate to ask because I was worried people would get furthur offended. Sometimes figuring out what God wants for us is the hardest part and that is when we have to get involved in conversations to see others point of view. That makes these conversaitons hard though because Josh Knows that God wants him to use this method of finding a spouse. While others here are sure it is NOT the method they were supposed to use. Some things have a definate right and wrong and some have right and wrong for that person. Those include drinking small amounts of alcohol, Betrothal vs dating, kissing before marriage, eating meat(well, in old testament times), and quite a few others. Everyone has a atrong opinion and everyone wants to do whats right and not everyone will ever agree!
Syele, that if very right, Everyone has there own opinion! The problem is they want to keep there own opinions instead of looking for Gods through study and prayer. And I'm not excluding myself in this statement. My boyfriend and I are "going out" you could say and I promise its not the easiest way to go, but then again it might be. Our relationship however is somewhat a mix between the courtship and the dating relationship, and it has been both a blessing and a cursing. I do think Syele is right though that courtship/betrothal isnt for everyone, I think God leads people in different ways, and who can understand the mysteries of God except he reveal it unto them. (That means I wouldn't question a method someone is using). I do think though that people who do not know about courtship should be let to know what it actualy is and involves even if they dont choose that path (Not as important as preaching the gospel of course). I know I'm cutting into the middle of a thread and everything but just out of curiosity so I'll ask for forgivness if anyone gets upset from it.
Did either of you two pm Josh and ask him what he meant? For the record, I took it to mean what Syele did. Nice to see you post again, Josh....thought you got tired of us old hens.
You're right, people choose other methods for a whole host of reasons. Lack of faith is one of them, but not the only one. I've already said this once before, I'm not trying to focus on people's past and how they did it "right" or "wrong." This is supposed to be a topic where we can compare ideas and get advice on applying them to the training of our kids and ourselves if we are unmarried. Your past is your past and it has brought you to where you are today. But that doesn't mean that you should be afraid to acknowledge that what you did in your past might not have been the best thing even though you wouldn't go back and change it. Do you know what I mean? I don't know you, but I do know betrothal takes more faith than dating, especially for the girl. In dating, the couple is in control and God takes an advisory role. In betrothal, the girl can't do anything but pray and trust in God to work things out, therefore it takes more faith. That's all. I'm sorry if I upset anyone but some things just need to be said. It's up to the recipient as for as the reaction goes. I don't try to upset anyone, so if somebody gets upset, I can't do anything about that. I won't let the idea of offending someone keep me from speaking up for the truth. At the same time, don't worry about offending me. If you feel I need corrected, please feel free to correct me. I will take anything anyone says under advisement. I was not making a person to person faith comparison. I was simply pointing out the fact that betrothal takes more faith. I understand that some people don't have as much faith as it takes, but that doesn't mean that God won't work things out another way. As Christians, we are all God's children. He knows some of us need more help than others and therefore gives us what we need. That's just a fact. I'm not comparing or looking down on anyone. I would be interested in seeing the scripture you have to back up this belief. Thanks, Syele for saying that. You're right. Though there can be varying degrees of faith, there is not such thing as varying degrees of Christianity as far as I know. If a Christian has less faith than another, that does not mean they're less of a Christian. It simply means that God might be working on that Christian in an area other than faith and that is all. God has dealt with me in the area of betrothal vs. dating. He may not have gotten around to working in that area with another person because they have more important issues. It doesn't make me better than them, it just means that I will practice betrothal and they will not and we will both have to deal with our own consequences for our actions. In the end, we all die and go to Heaven. All this other stuff only adds to our earthly testimonies. I am simply trying to share what God has revealed to me about His plan for marriage. You are right, everyone does have their own opinion. What I'm trying to say is that I have formed my opinion through my study of the Bible and what God would have us do when looking for our mates. Betrothal is more than just my opinion. I understand that some people due to sinful circumstances cannot participate in the betrothal process, but that doesn't change the fact that it is God's will as far as I can tell in my reading of the scripture. If anyone disagrees, show me the scriptures that lead you to disagree so I can also change my beliefs. That way we don't squabble over who's right and who's wrong and we find what God would have us do.
