Naw, I just felt like letting everyone have their space for a while. I know I can get people wound up pretty good so i like to give folks a break from time to time. Thanks for missing me though.
reading replies Yes, I'm butting in here too... Why did anyone think Josh was comparing his faith to anyone elses's? He simply replied to an earlier statement. Can we try to take the time to read all of the previous post before growing offended. Review: Syele said: I could be waiting for an eternity just because most people have never heard of betrothal let alone practice it. Josh replied: Syele, if you put your faith in God, you don't have to worry about a thing. You know, faith in God applies to all "methods" of finding a mate.
I was thinking the same thing, Carrie. Though we all tend to think we can do it better than God can, and try to take things into our own hands. I think it may be easier to do that with dating, but I am sure it can be done with courtship or betrothal, too.
That's right. Trust me, I was raised with betrothal and took things into my own hands and TOTALLY messed everything up. When I took control from God I ended up "dating" instead of using betrothal like I knew He wanted me to. I lost faith in God and took matters into my own hands. It can happen to anyone if they don't stay grounded in their faith. Just like in anything else, we can take God's perfect will and twist it into a knot so unrecognizable we don't even know which way we're going. Thankfully God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and to fix things up to work for His ultimate glory in the end no matter what we do. But it’s always better to find and follow His will unwavering in the first place because that is the road that leads to the most blessings and the least chastisement. This discussion has reminded me of another conversation I had on another forum. Someone in that discussion brought Psalms 37:4 to my attention and it had a profound impact on me when I read the whole chapter. I've read that whole chapter before, but this time round it meant so much more. I really think it is applicable to this topic as well. Psalms 37 is all about seeking the Lord and doing good and what happens to those who do it and don't do it. I hope you all get as much out of it as I did. Psalm 37 "Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. For they shall soon be cut down like grass, and wither as the green herb. Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lord upholdeth the righteous. The Lord knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth. For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off. The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore. For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seek to slay him. The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble. And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him."
Josh, my only point to my whole rambling was to tell you that, yes, it is wonderful to tell the biblical truths and be honest in your persepctives, but it is also wise to word things in a way that does not sound judgemental to others. That was just how I took it, whether it was meant like that or not. I know sometimes when you can't 'hear' people speak it's hard to determine what a person's meaning is. To a post earlier (don't remember who), but yes I have read every post in case that was pointed at me. I have started to take statements probably out of context with different intentions, but because I have been feeling like this is starting to become a 'war against measuring faith' I need to unsubscribe to this thread. I know that is not anyones intentions, but I can't help but feel like that when I read some statements. I love the Lord and have just as much faith as anyone else, it just doesn't seem to be acknowledged that way. God bless everyone and the ways God has led you all in your faith because I feel very blessed for being a part of God's perfect plan as well. Sorry to end on such a sour note, but I can't be a part of something that makes me feel put down. I can't explain it any more than that and don't know how to explain it otherwise. Just because some people haven't taken offense doesn't mean other people haven't as welll. That is why many people have unsubscribed to this thread already, because they have felt belittled in a way. I love all of you and leave this thread with an open mind and unjudgmental heart, I just hope everyone else feels the same.
I just read that passage a few days ago during my devotions. So thankful to those who have prayed for me...I'm getting back on track!
I'm well...I had requested prayer for myself a couple weeks ago on a thread here. I'm doing better but I'm still wondering if I need to be checked for depression again....I had a disturbing dream that I KNOW was of the Lord....a kind of warning of what needs to be done on my part to avoid devastation :shock:. I don't feel depressed per say, but I am constantly irritable and snippy....and it's not even that time of the month.
Brooke, be like the three wise men. They saw the star that pointed them in the direction of Christ’s birth, but they had to stop and consult the scripture to know exactly where to go. Prayer is good for finding direction, but the pathway is found in the scripture. Nothing you do should ever go against anything in scripture. God wouldn't have it any other way or else He wouldn't have given the Bible to us in the first place. Also, I was digging around in my computer and found something that a lady sent me to help me out with the subject of dating and I'd like to share it with you all. In my last relationship, I had a bunch or these red flags. "Red Flags in a Dating Relationship" (Negative signs in a dating relationship, or reasons to put on the brakes and STOP!) 1. The person is not a Christian. 2. Parents, family members or your pastor have concerns about, or do not approve of the relationship. 3. You have ever felt you needed to hide your relationship, or certain aspects of your relationship from you parents. 4. You make excuses, or feel you must apologize for, the person or their actions. 5. The person tries to change you. 6. The person questions your parent's judgment. 7. The person acts as if your accomplishments or things that are important to you are not important. 8. You have ever lied about any aspect of your relationship to your parents or others. 9. The person is overly jealous or tries to restrict your contact with friends or family. 10. You rarely spend time with friends of the same sex because most of your time is spent with the person and their friends. 11. You are not as close to your friends or family as you were before you began your relationship with this person. 12. The person tries to rush into or pressure you into a physical relationship. 13. The person is irresponsible, and/or encourages you to be, by blowing off work, school, church, and other responsibilities. 14. You still care about, or are attracted to, someone you liked or dated in the past. 15. You can’t easily pray with, or discuss your spiritual life with this person. 16. The person thinks of himself or herself first, and you second, always wanting you to fit into their schedule and make time for them without doing the same for you. 17. You find yourself putting the other person before God, worrying more about what they think than you do about what God thinks. 18. The person does things that frustrate or annoy you and you try and convince yourself that you can live with them or overlook them. 19. You ever wonder if you are “settling” by being with this person, rather than waiting for God’s best for you. 20. The person lets you down or makes excuses when you are counting on them. 21. You become defensive when people you respect question the relationship. 22. After a long-term relationship, the person has not discussed your future as a couple regarding marriage, but seems to be continually focused on their individual needs and wants. 23. You wonder if there is someone else better for you than this person, or you find yourself attracted to others. 24. You worry about the relationship and “losing” the person, fearful that you will never meet anyone else. 25. You overlook the person’s faults, seeing them as you wish he or she was, rather than how they really are. 26. You worry about how the person compares to others, knowing that they are not God’s best for you. 27. You are hesitant to talk about certain things because you know it will cause a disagreement. 28. The person makes you feel that your opinions do not matter, but theirs do. 29. Either of you feels, "Wow, this person is lucky to have me!" 30. The person has ever harmed you physically in any way. 31. The person is verbally abusive towards you or others. 32. The person has a bad temper – even if it hasn’t been directed at you. 33. The person cannot forgive and forget, but continually brings up sins from your past that you have already sought forgiveness for. 34. You are embarrassed of the person or the way they act when they show up at your work or school or church. 35. You are not closer to the Lord now than you were at the beginning of your relationship. 36. The person is disrespectful of your parents or family members. 37. The person tries to justify or make excuses for doing things that are unacceptable or not pleasing to God. (Examples: smoking, drinking, drugs, watching programs or movies that you know are wrong, taking your relationship too far physically.) 38. The person resists being submissive or obedient to authorities such as parents, teachers, pastors, or law enforcement officers. 39. The person brings out the worst in you, causing you to often be moody, depressed, or anxious. 40. The person is argumentative with others. 41. The person has lied to you. 42. You do not have spiritual peace about the relationship. 43. The person falls short of “your list.” 44. You know you do not want to marry this person. 45. The person puts you down, or talks poorly about you in front of other people. 46. The person discourages your involvement in church or church activities. 47. The person isn’t, “exceeding abundantly above all you ask or imagine.” (Ephesians3:20) Any one of these “red flags” should cause you to stop the relationship and reassess. More than one “red flag” would mean you should end the relationship NOW! © 2000 by Linda Zimmerman, all rights reserved.
:shock:.....ouch...that list hurt. I can't tell you how many things on that list are my life right now....getting better, but still present to some degree. Once you are married, though, you have to change those red flags into white ones and cast them all at the Lord's feet . A very, very good list to have for a single person. It sounds like you have sought wise councel. Your parents should be proud, as I am sure they secretly are while trying to be as humble as possible about it :lol:.
Josh, let me tell you a story. Most of you have heard this already, so there's time to get a cup of coffee if you want. On a morning in Nov. '89 a guy I really liked broke my heart. I was sick of men, sick of being hurt. I was a believer, so I prayed to God that morning on the way home from work and told him I would wait for whoever He wanted me to have. I wasn't looking anymore. December '89 my future husband was hired where I worked. During Jan., Feb., and March, '90 my future husband was put on third shift like me, I was trained to work in his dept., and I ended up working with him. We went on our first date in May of '90. he accepted my son as his own from day one. He has never used the word 'step' when referring to my son, it's always my son, our son. He has always been more than kind to my family, even when he was clearly being used. All this time neither one of us had any other offers or interests from anyone else. In march we'll be married 10 years, and there's been no one else for either of us. I truly believe God brought us together. Absolutely without a doubt. However, we both do most of the things on that list. Those things happen after awhile in a relationship, even in one created through betrothal. I guess if one partner puts up and shuts up it might not. Should I divorce him because he smokes and likes to watch Steven Segal movies? Should he divorce me because I sometimes drive too fast, disobeyeing the law? Some of those things on your list aren't sensible to apply after awhile. People, even betrothed ones, get complacent after awhile, they get too comfortable after awhile. That's natural. I dare anyone here to say their spouse never let them down somehow or took them for granted. It can go the other way, too, with us girls doing the deed. My husband and I are learning things from each other that I believe God wants us to learn. I don't believe I know what God is thinking, but I can see changes in both of us that wouldn't have happened if we hadn't been brought together. We both have a long way to go, though, and I think he fights what needs to be changed. Some men are like that, they don't want to be told they're wrong. You live at home, Josh, you're very young yet. I hope your marriage ideals work out like you plan, because you believe in them so strongly. It's my belief, though, perfection like you expect will not happen. What then?
Here is a thought...if someone starts out fresh without ever having been in a relationship before, I think that list is an extremely good one to at least consider. I don't believe it was intended for those of us who are already married. It's obviously past the "red flag" stage at that point. Also, when I got married it was of the Lord...I knew that and so did he...but the issues we now face--and faced from the beginning--were brought about by our own doing. If I had stuck to the ideal from the beginning of my life I would not have been in a position to need to be married, kwim? Because of our sin prior to marriage we have/had these issues to deal with. If you keep yourself pure then you have a chance to wait for God's best...not marry to avoid burning, kwim?
But, don't you think people put on their best show in the beginning? I have often said to my husband I wished he had been real to begin with, because it would have saved a lot of frustration for me that I'm dealing with now.
I think everyone is "on their best behavior" in the beginning. That's to be expected. Noone is perfect, so we can't expect God to give us a perfect person. If we each try to make ourselves right with God, that is BOTH partners, then the relationship does well. In that case, both partners would be giving 100% to the marriage, so you'll have 200% going for you. It's obviously much harder when one of the partners is not doing that. In that case we just have to keep trusting God to lead us to be good examples to them and give to the relationship what God wants us to. And we need to pray for our partner, that the Holy Spirit will impress upon them the need to take a more active roll in the areas that need work. The thing is, the Holy Spirit cannot move in forcefully to make that person do the right thing. Then it would be compulsion, not free will. So God may be working on your spouse's heart to change and he/she may be resisting. Keep praying though, and doing your part to be what you should be. It will be a good witness to your partner, as well as to your children! I know that's easier said than done. My husband and I have not had any major issues, and what we HAVE had has mostly been me that's been the problem (working through issues from my growing up years). We never went with "the silent treatment", or things like that. We had discussions, some louder than others (though there again it was pretty much me doing the loud talking---that's what I was raised with, so that's the only way I knew. I've learned a lot since). Now, I'd say, after 17 years we have a very strong relationship and are more in tune to each others needs and want to do what's best for our family, so our children (ages 8, 12 as of the 23rd, and 14) have good examples of what a marriage should be. A good marriage isn't always easy, sometimes it's a lot of work, but God can help every step of the way, and though it seems to take forever, He's always there for you/me/us!
Awesome!!! My husband and I also have had to work through issues relating to sin before marriage. It can be really tough. But God is faithful. He has made something beautiful from the mess we made. Being at the Lord's feet is what is super important. Whether you choose betrothal, courtship, dating, or a "process" without a name....what counts is that one thing, "Are you at the Lord's feet?"
Hello, and thanks for this forum! As parents of two wonderful teens, we want to provide opportunities for them to interact with other Godly teens. We are thankful that they do have three good homeschooling friends, each, but not any that share all of the tennants of our faith. I'd like to insert a question into this discussion of courtship and betrothal about using technology like eHarmony to avail our family of like-minded young people. From friends who have gone that route, it seems to cut out a lot of wasted time and links people only to others of similar values. How could this route be used with courtship or betrothal? And does anyone know of a similarly-structured courtship opportunity for 18-year olds and up? EHarmony only allows 21 year olds and over. We'd like to see a homeschool courtship service! Any leads?
Hello everyone. I was glued to the screen as I read your replies. I must say that Josh is very admirable for standing by his convictions. Before I say more, I want to add that any marriage before Christ is a covenant with Him and unto Him, regardless of the way it came about. I am for courtship and the big "B" word.(I couldn't spell it) I am a firm believer that when people date, many go by emotion rather then reality or fact. This is the reason for many divorces today because many people are deluded of the truth because they are infatuated with the idea of being in love. Granted their are some who dated and are still married but I honestly do not think it is related to you dating but rather because you stuck it out through thick and thin to be honoring before the Lord. Once you are married, you are married, regardless how you got there. My reasons for believing in these two ways is because it usually does help people to see more clearly. More time is spend on getting to know each other rather than watching a movie, making out, or what ever most of us did when we dated. There is a high level of accountability which is greatly lost through dating. However, I do not believe that any of these three are full proof. When you read the scriptures, it does not discuss dating; that I know of. The Word is our direction for living. It guides in the path we shall go. I do not believe in giving power or authority to the idea that due to the days we are living in, these paths can not be accomplished. God's word is alive and good everyday from beginning until end. I am a bit old fashion and proud to be. The enemy roams like a roaring lion and causes confussion among what is meant to be holy; from dating, courtship, and "B" and all that leads up to a covenent of marriage. The last two help us push these temptations and deceptions aside through accountablity with others. Maybe some of your dating experiences were different than mine and your family was near by at all times but mine wasn't. I do not think my dating experience honored God in any way. This is not to say I do not love my husband but I believe a lot of the destructive behaviors could have been avoided if God had been placed in control of all decisions that were to be made. My ways may not be everybody elses ways but they are the way I am being led. Obviously it isn't for everybody. But in all things we must honor the Lord from dating, courtship and through "B". I do not see anything cultish about this. Dating was not a regular thing up until somewhere in the 1900's. Women would not have dared go out alone with a man. It was looked down upon. I think that as we move through the years our society has become more of a free for all and has seperated from God, making dating, courtship or what have you more of an entertainment rather then a means of meeting a life mate. (This is a general idea. I am not stating that those who dated or believe in it are sperated from Christ.) I like the idea of the old values that were held up in the past. It made for tighter marriage bonds and eliminated the extra activites that tend to take place in modern dating. God bless. Until later. Patty
