Jen, I'm not sure what you're trying to say . But whatever it is , there's so many false positives for many conditions. I wonder how many "handicapped" babies have been aborted because the parent is wrongly told that their child isn't "perfect". I know, because I was over 35 with Faythe, they wanted me to take a test. I told them straight out that I worked with physically handicapped children, and considered their lives just as precious. I told them that nothing could be done if it was positive to "correct" the situation, and the only decision would be whether or not to abort that baby. And that was a non-decision to me, so why bother taking the test? So she told me this way a woman could "prepare" for this handicapped child. So I went on to explain the percentage of false-positives (which I knew THEN, lol!), and how many women spent a very stressful pregnancy which isn't a good thing for mother OR baby, because of worry about a condition that never existed in the first place!
I'm saying that if you use the analogy of "Jumping in" to save the child... to me, that would be more closely related to keeping a child who might have a "Life threatening Condition". Whereas Jumping in with a child who will die in utero anyway, is more closely related to unnesasarily taking on that child's disease, when doing so does nothing to save the child, and does everything to take yours. Almost like suicide.
So you're talking about when a child will die eventually in utero. And continuing the pregnancy puts the mother's life in danger. In that case, you feel it would be OK to take the child? (I'm not stating a position, just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly!)
Yes, because adding your life to the death count on something that we know, is tantamount to suicide. It is like a trap. That's why I mentioned God giving us brains and wanting us to use them. Like NOT seeking a doctors care for asthma, and waiting for God to fix it... Where as he gave us the tools ie: our brains to try to fix it ourselves.. ie: Doctors to treat the asthma... Well, Doctors can look at a dying fetus and say, it is not going to live, as it is not attached to the uterus. It will die. But it will take you with it, when your tube erupts. So what would the point be to die with it? My cousin used to belive that waiting for God to fix things was the way to go. But if you are hanging off a cliff, didn't he give us brains and arms to pull ourselves back up?
Absolutely, God gave us doctors for a reason but I am wondering how many women have had an abortion because they were told to by a doctor who isn't God, when the baby could have lived. Now I do understand that a tubal pregnancy is never good for the mom or baby and that the mom does have a high risk of her life being lost. ...and I too need to say that I am not picking a position when it comes to a tubal pregnancy. This would be one of the most difficult positions to be in. Praise God I haven't been here. I am just sharing why it is so difficult for me to weigh it out. I do not know if it ever would be easy to come with an answer.
I hope nobody minds me jumping in here and adding my cents worth , but i can come at this from varying sides. You see i was 15 when i became pregnant , i was givena ulimatium by my parents, abort the child and stay at home or keep my baby and move into foster care. I moved into foster care and that still did'nt stop my parents from trying to force me into having an abortion, going as far as getting legal advice on "forcing" me into having a abortion.My daughter is now 15 years old and there isnt a day i don't thank god i made the decision i did. While in foster care there was another young girl i became deep friends with , she was also pregnant but unfortunately hers was through a rape, a gang rape in fact , she did'nt know who the father was , in actual fact the father could of been up to 10 men.She was advised by social services to abort, she did'nt , she kept her son and a few years ago i met up with her and her son and we had a conversation about her pregnancy and why she decided to keep the baby , and she replied with " he did'nt ask to be created Faith, it was'nt his fault, why should i punish him ". I have never seen a woman so devoted to her son as she is...... I am a believer in every woman has a right to choose , maybe thats why i chose law as a career, but there are many times while dealing with things in work i have to hold my tongue.Because what i personally believe is not necessary what the law says.
But a woman with a ruptured fallopian tube will not necessarily die. I have a good friend who had to have emergency surgery and had a tube removed because of an ruptured tube from an ectopic pregnancy, but she lived and is healthy today. We cannot know how many times this is true. I have very good friends, who became pregnant early in their marriage. At the time they did not have health insurance. At her first check-up, she was told by her doc that she had an ectopic pregnancy and to go immediately to the ER to terminate the pregnancy. By God's wonderful grace, the ER doc decided to do a second ultrasound (this was not routine!). The baby was fine. She is now a beautiful 12 year old girl. Many years later, we found out that the very doctor that these friends saw was notorious for making up medical reasons to terminate pregnancies, when he thought the parents were in less-than-ideal situations (including being uninsured). I do not have an answer for the ectopic pregnancy situation. I know that my God is so much bigger than any health issue, but I also know that I am human. The human side of me often prevails.
I think a lot of the problem is that no matter how you write the law, there is some situation that is different and some idiot is going to misapply the law. Not all pro-choicers are baby killers, they just think that it should be allowable in some situations. And not all anti-abortionists think the mom should die if the baby it a tubal pregnancy. If we were all more moral we wouldn't have to write laws like that. We would just know the right thing to do.
Free Spirt like what you said! Just to let y'all know I have pretty much said what I had to say on here I dont mean to be rude and just fade away. Glad we got over any misunderstanding. I am so busy right now on the farm with selling our lamb/turkeys before we take off on our trip to Wash State I dont have much time to debate anymore my mind is about to explode with things I need to do still. Thanks for all the info again I have learned from both sides. Sam
I for one, do not have the answers, for sure. I wish I did. This conversation tells us one clear thing... There is no clear cut answer.
A while back, the discussion was about aborted babies born alive and then left to die. I found this article today: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77946
Jackie I do not know what to say about that, except that it's grievious. Well, Jennifer, I'll concede that we women may not have a clear cut answer, but I just talked with someone who does!!! My husband!! *Staring at him now in awe at what came out of his mouth* See, I have just been expounding to him the "double-standard" theory that we should not expect others (who have not trusted in the goodness of God and His sacrifice for us) to give the ultimate sacrifice for their unborn children--that is, to be willing to die for a baby instead of terminating that life before it may terminate theirs. (Though, as has been eloquently pointed out, one never knows for sure that it will require the mother's life, and after reading several of your posts, I wonder if that actually happens anymore. So this may be a moot point, after all.) Anyway, about the double standard... "Oh, no!" He said. "I've seen wild birds defending their nests against predators. The mothers had absolutely zero chance to survive, yet they gave no thought to abandoning the unhatched babies inside those eggs. Even nature teaches us that parents sacrifice against all odds for their young--it's just the natural thing to do. 'Doesn't change things if you're a Christian or not. We were made to sacrifice for our children. Calculating the mother's chance for survival has nothing to do with it!" *Thinking now of exceptions to this in nature, but still astonished at his thought* It might be like an honorable captain staying with the ship as it goes down. It might be like keeping in mind that death wouldn't the end of things for the mother: in fact, it's just the beginning... Oh! The sorrow of being human! Of having the gift of free-will instead of instinct! Of knowing that how we use that gift has eternal consequences!
I have not read all the posts, so this may have been covered. If so, I apologize. When people chose human leadership over God's leadership, they also chose man-centered morality, which is not as steadfast as God's morality. In fact, leaders in many countries throughout time have forced their own set of morals and even their own religions on the people they ruled and tried conquering those they could not. We may not agree with their morality, but it is what rules the land. That is the heart of why the pro-life/pro-choice issue is a political power play within our own government. People, in general, expect the the government and its leaders to set the standards of morality instead of looking to God. (As long as it is not against the law, it is okay to do. In a Godless society, this is exactly how the people tend to think.) Just like the public schools tend to teach to the lowest denominator, so does government set morality rather low and, because it is a man-made government it has the nature of man; that is, it is self-serving. The Constitution was meant to protect life and property and it is a wonderful document, but what each individual interprets as life and property, and injury thereof is why we have courts. (Is a fetus a baby? Does it have a soul? Is it a woman's property because it is within her?) In the end, these decisions become our nation's morality. At the very least, we are judged by other countries by our laws and our actions within and without our own laws. Some view the life/choice issue as a battle between good and evil or just a matter of free will choices, rights protected by the Constitution because morality cannot be and should not be legislated. Regardless, it has become a very fundamental way to measure up a candidate about his own moral issues and that makes this particular issue continue to be very important, even though these leaders being voted in will not have any direct authority to change it in our checks and balances system. Personally, I just see it as a terrible, terrible tragedy revealing how far we have fallen away from seeking the Lord's will and how He would govern us, because if God was in charge of our government, I don't think it would be an issue at all.
