Marty...you amaze me! I have a friend who is the same way...she has fixed my car many times and she is a lady. I'd love to know how to change the oil! I did some work on my car once I was taught. But this is where I am a bit strange...I don't see fixing cars as a "guy" thing. Women drive also and should be well equipped when dealing with her car. I'm talking about something deeper..an intangible that is not simply a like or dislike for something pink. I, myself, have done many jobs around the house most would have their husband do. In fact, I do plenty that is not a traditional "woman" thing. I also hated Barbies growing up. I think the issue of gender roles is only a problem in extreme circumstances. I knew a girl who was treated like a boy and given a boy name because her dad wanted a boy. She looked like a boy, dressed like a boy, and acted like a boy. It was not your cool tomboy but something else there....an intangible that made her different than just girl who was "one of the boys." It was as if her father could not accept he had a girl so he just made his girl into his boy. Not that he figured...hey, I have a girl..but she will be a lady who can change the oil. This was different. Oh and is she a lesbian? Yes. She lives with her lover and they have a baby. Oh and I know a guy who is gay and he is not girly at all...and was not as young person. Toys are not the issue. Likes and dislikes are not the issue. It's more than that. Concerning parenting...I think it's when a parent either allows for gender confusion...encourages cross gender activity and so forth. I don't consider changing the oil for a girl or making a cake for a boy cross gender activity.
I have been thinking about the gender thing alot. It has come up at school (mine- psych) too. I went to school with a girl who always dressed like a boy and hated dresses...I have no idea what happened to her. I was more of a tom-boy...and I had many friends that were boys, because of where we lived the activities were soccer in the front yard (too old for org. soccer in the US!) hide and seek in the back. (acres of trees) swimming in the creek...bb guns and horses. I prefered pants and prefered hanging with my dad. I expected my daughter to be the same. NOT. She wouldn't wear pants. (although I talked her into leggings with dresses for the playground) Her hair was long and she wanted curls and bows. I bought her trucks and they sat on the shelf. She was also a Mama's girl...but I blame that on her father. She as an adult continues to embrace the feminine talents...but she knows how to put gas in the car, she can balance a checkbook, she has a least assisted in changing tires and oil. Now, the boys. Well let us start by saying they have two older sisters so the toys were available...I did not have to buy "girl" toys with them like I bought "boy" toys with the girls. (and even my tomboy didn't play with them) They liked having fingernail polish on...and trust me thier sisters liked to put it there. Both boys wanted jelly sandals...at about 2 or 3 and I chose not to purchase them. My youngest's favorite color is pink...He is frustrated that it is a "girl" color. It isn't fair because light yellow, blue and green are not "girl" colors but light red is? It doesn't seem logical to him. (and he LIKES logical) He has a pink shirt that is his favorite church shirt. We are both happy, him because it is pink and me because it has a collar. (he prefers t-shirts) As the youngest he often hasn't had a choice in his clothing. He likes his fingernails long. ok. I admit this is an issue for all of us. I let him wear them longer than I like and shorter than he would prefer. He says short nails are uncomfortable and quite frankly I agree with him, I wear my own nails rather long...so he wants to know WHY boys have to wear short nails. hmmm. Because it is cultural? (we also fuss about the cleanliness of said nails..his not mine.) Is he feminine? I don't think so. He is tough, takes kickboxing and has many friends, most of whom are boys. He wants to be a blacksmith when he grows up. He is not as "sensitive" as his brother but not as interested in girls...on the other hand his brother is comming up quickly on 13 and he is still just 9...but in general the older one has always been interested in the girls. It is interesting how many gay and lesbians have abuse and odd family dynamics in thier background. And I can say that even about the ones in my own family. Do I worry about my younger son being gay? No, not really any more or less than I worry about the older one being promiscuous. I mean any of them can experiment...I try to be aware of those situations...you know the children of good friends of ours who are a few years older. We haven't had to worry about babysitting for the most part with our girls being handy and grandparents on and off. I am leaning toward the belief that there is a definite biological factor in male homosexuality...but less in female. I could go into it more but I won't on this board.
First statement...agree! Very much agree...that's the intangible I was talking about...something much deeper than a boy liking pink. Second statement...disagree to an extent. But that's me.
Ava Rose, My dad would not allow me to get my driver's license until I could rotate the tires, change the oil and do some minor repairs that would keep a car running until you could get to a gas station. I did learn to drive before cell phones! He would say, "No daughter of mine is going to be at the mercy of some idiot on the side of the road!" My dad was an over the road truck driver so he saw a lot over his years of driving! To this day I'm the one who takes care of the vehicle maintenance. I think the best thing he ever did was give me the idea that if you are capable of doing a job, do it. It doesn't matter what "gender" people think the job is. And it doesn't matter what gender dominates the field of work. I think when parents try to contort a child into acting like their idea of a specific gender they have a false idea of what that gender should behave like. In turn, the parent creates a manipulative person with a twisted sense of self and a corrupted view of others. This keeps the child from being able to have any type of healthy relationships with others, whether that's a work, romantic or friend relationship. By the way, ds wants to learn to sew and cook! He sees me sewing and cooking. I told him some some of the best chefs and taylors in the world are men! Marty
goodnsimple, I am so with you on getting a daughter that is soooooo not like me! :lol: I was a tomboy, even to the point of wearing flannel shirts and steel-toed boots during my grunge phase. All my close friends were guys because girls just didn't "get me". (well, that and guys were just so darn cute! ) When I married my husband (after knowing him less than a week), I finally started wearing pink at his request. :lol: My dd, on the other hand, came out of the womb wearing a dress, make-up and glitter! She was so excited when she got aunts who were girly-girls, too. I think she thought she was adopted before that! I have two younger brothers and all of us helped with the indoor and outdoor chores. We had to know how a manual transmission worked before we were even allowed to drive it. We built fences and outbuildings as often as we cleaned house and did the laundry. Very glad that my parents didn't assingn certain duties to certain sexes. We had certain things that needed done for our home to function and all of us could--and willing did--perform all functions. Edited to include: Marty! I posted this before I saw your comment on your dad and cars! Funny!!!
For those wondering what happened to those girls who pretended to be boys when they were growing up? That was me! My mother is an old-school feminist and civil rights activist. I grew up in the seventies, in an environment in which every message I got from school and the media was - Girls are just as good as boys! I know we were trying for gender equality, but the message I got was - Boys are better, girls should strive to be just like them. "Girly" things are icky, and should be shunned. I used to think someone had played a terrible nasty trick on me, by forcing me to be born a girl. My mother, meanwhile, gave me a seventies-style gender neutral haircut and stuck me in overalls (very practical for climbing trees!). Most everyone thought I was a boy - even some of my friends. But then puberty arrived and something happened. I discovered I liked being a girl! I liked the attention I got from boys - and I don't mean friendship. My first boyfriend kept trying to make me "more of girl", fixing up my hair and putting makeup on me. I played along for a bit, but eventually I dumped him. I didn't need to be "fixed", I needed to be me. Then I met my husband, who told me he hates makeup. Doesn't like the taste of lipstick. Loves the look of a girl in jeans. Doesn't care what I do with my hair. And he thinks I'm just as gorgeous when I roll out of bed all rumpled in the morning, as when I doll myself up to go to a function with him. I overheard one of our male neighbours comment to him that I was "looking hot", and my husband replied contentedly, "Yeah, my wife sure cleans up nice, doesn't she?" So I don't think being a tomboy as a child hurt me one bit. That said, I tried to encourage my daughter to embrace her girly side. Princesses were just fine with me! But she likes jeans and she doesn't care about her hair, and she hates makeup. She's her daddy's girl through and through. Meanwhile my son wears pink golf shirts - but so does my husband! And so does the Army Captain living next door. Together they look like a pack of Easter eggs. My son loves to cook, but his idol is Chef Ramsey, who's hardly a poof. He loves his big pastel bunny - but my husband still has his teddy bear tucked away, and he's all man. I don't think gender roles have anything to do with sexuality. I'm in the "it's biological" camp. Besides, before WWI, pink was a boy's colour.
I wish my dad felt the same. He didn't teach me any car stuff. That was the reverse of your dad. He taught my brother and not me. Why? I don't think roles should be so defined. I think jobs are jobs...tasks are tasks and should not be assigned a gender. This takes focus off of real issues.
DANG!!! My boyfriend in high school thought a flannel shirt was a lot "hotter" than most outfits! But then I went to Oral Roberts, where they had a dress code. And suddenly I discovered that I can do almost anything in a dress that I could do in jeans (even climb a tree, depending on the tree and how careful I was!!!). My boyfriend's sisters NEVER wore dresses. And it drove him CRAZY when I did, because then he felt he had to treat me like a "lady", even though I behaved the same as if I were in jeans. It REALLY gave me an edge with him! (Oh, PLEASE don't let Rachael read this, lol!!!) I am very frustrated that my daughters don't wear dresses AT ALL. That's because we don't go anywhere where dresses are appropriate. At our church, NO ONE (and I mean NO ONE!!!) wears much more than jeans. I tried to have them wear a dress just once a month, but it really didn't work out!
I was one of those girls who prayed every night to wake up in the morning as a boy! Even when puberty hit and I wanted boys to like me, but the dresses and makeup and hair stuff was sheer torture. I never really enjoyed being female until I met DH - and he's my second husband. The last time I ever wore a skirt was the day I married him. Actually, I was a karate instructor when we met, and he was my student before he was my boyfriend, and I taught both my kids (dd and ds) as well. Although I could change a tire and check/refill fluids in the car, and mowed grass growing up, I never did get that bb gun I wanted - I did have cap pistols and played cowBOYS and tackle football in the yard with the neighbors (girls and boys). Dad did teach me how to play baseball and let me go hunting with him occasionally, but there were certain things girls just "did not do". Mom never taught me to cook because I was left handed and she thought I was just too awkward. Dad had had to learn to do everything, because his mother died when he was a child, so he was the youngest and left at home with his father who had had a stroke, but he still felt like some things were just primarily "women's work" and some things "men's work" - but he always told me I could go to college and become anything I wanted, even President! DH's mom brought him up with the idea that there are tasks to do around the house, and it doesn't matter who does them, everybody needs to know how - all four (boy, girl, girl, boy) cook, clean, mow grass, etc. His mom and dad had very specific roles, which is different than how they raised their kids - she was house/stay at home, and he was outdoors/go to work. DH got real particular about his clothes when he was in junior high, so his mom told him if he wanted it done a particular way, he should do it himself, and he has ever since. Growing up, dh had to trade off with his sisters (little brother was too little to play) and play dolls with them so they'd play cowboys with him. For while after we got married, I was the major breadwinner and dh was a stay-at-home dad. He had his own business - upholstery - sewing! His mom taught him how to run the machine when he was growing up, although he never really sewed any garments or anything. But it turned out to be very useful later. She also taught him sewing/mending by hand, which has also been very handy to know, and he's made a few quilts. DS thought he wanted tp be a chef and went to culinary school with dreams of having his own restaurant, but it turned out he doesn't have the temperment to be able to stand the high-pressure-no-respect, spend years just chopping veggies to work your way up, of a commercial kitchen. He still enjoys cooking, just doesn't want to do that as his career anymore. Incidentally, for quite a while, as an adult, my nephew's favorite shirt was a bright pink t-shirt that said, "I'm secure in my sexuality." Over 6 foot, big burly guy. Definitely NOT a girly-man! But he likes pink shirts and makes no apologies for it....
Ok I saw that program. I was SOOOO irritated. Gender neutral parenting is NOT what was shown. Teaching your children that they can play with any toys, they are not genderalized....and that there are not boys or girls chores/responsibilities.....is NOT gender neutral. It's slightly feminist, but only slightly. In today's world, it's the way to teach your kids they can be and do anything. 20 years ago this wasn't the case, but today it is. (Lord knows my son isn't landing a decent wife unless he can cook and clean because she'll have her own job and laugh at his face if he were to say "that's not my job." Ha!) Gender neutral parenting is EXTREME: ie: gowns (think scrubtype) in solid kinda blah colors with no pants-usually to the calf, usually a typr of shorts as "briefs" or underwear, bowl or slightly longer haircuts (think monk style), and all toys would be things like puzzles, books, and very very basic-so as to not encourage any particular type of choice. There's even a particular way of speaking used-with an emphasis on certain pronouns. It's hardly ever seen anymore because parents that chose it saw their children grow up with preferences anyway. {I had to study this briefly in college-and thought it was terribly odd.Didn't sound like a fun childhood.} Any good preschool teacher will tell you, the boys and girls dress up together, just the same as they all play trucks in the sand together. But by age 10, they have usually follwed more genderized roles....because their brains want different things (girls will sit and talk more or play more sing song games at recess, boys will play more running or eye hand coordinatin games {ala baseball}) The other 2 families were very interesting. I didn't agree with the no heirarchy thing-as it seems most didn't/don't-and the main reason is that it sets them up for serious failure in a world where understanding heirarchy is a requirement in the work force. However, their ease with things seemed nice. I completely disagreed with their nutritional choices.... The third family I have some things in common with (we do a form of attachment parenting-we can't do it fully because I can't wear a sling or backpack...)-but I thought the best as the dad saying at first he wasn't on board but he tried anyway. Way to go! Lastly, I have enjoyed reading everyone's entries (I too prayed to just wake up male....especially once I had that nasty monthly visit...) Thank you.
#1-I think I know where it STEMS from, but it is extreme. I am a HUGE believer in kids are a people too. They should be shown respect like any other human. I talk to my kids more adult like than a lot of people. I think these parents are one of 2 groups. A-they are trying to show their kids respect as a human. They are just taking it too far. and B-they are just too lazy to be parents! LOL #2-I'm not extremist, but my boys do have dolls. And they both have played with my high heels and put on my make-up (now that wasn't always with my permission! LOL) but around 3-4 I do put limits on make up and high heels. #3-we sorta attachment parented. Though not cause we read about it and decided to try it, it just came naturally. More so with my 2nd. Both mine self weaned from the breast. I didn't co-sleep with my oldest, but I did with my youngest, but only cause we HAD to to get ANY sleep! He had HORRID reflux, could NOT sleep on his stomach, so he slept with me on his back propped up on my arm. I went much more crunchy granola-y with #2! LOL Battled breastfeeding battles harder determined to make it past the year mark (made it 15 months) Got yeast so bad for about a week I'd SCREAM every time he latched on and CRY the whole time he nursed. But I was determined to do it! LOL Used cloth diapers and wipes. Oldest is circumcised, youngest isn't. Wore him CONSTANTLY and due to his reflux I did wear him almost every waking minute until he was 6 months old and the reflux went away. It was the only time he didn't cry, was if I was holding him.
Oh man! Yeast infection-awful. More power to you though as I know many women that haven't been able to do that! I wish we could've done cloth....but our washer wouldn't handle it and no service available. Bummer. Still reading all the fun takes this thread as spurned....
